“Look what’s happening out in the streets
Got a revolution (got to revolution)
Hey, I’m dancing down the streets
Got a revolution (got to revolution)
Oh, ain’t it amazing all the people I meet
Got a revolution (got to revolution)
One generation got old
One generation got soul
This generation got no destination to hold
Pick up the cry
Hey, now it’s time for you and me
We are volunteers of America”
— “Volunteers” by Paul Kantner & Marty Balin, Jefferson Airplane, 1969
The messages emanating from the music and time of the Jefferson Airplane (and the gajillion other mindblowing bands) seem to be floating around and on people’s minds these days, at least around here. That sense of “What the f*#k is going on and what are we doing?”
After a bit of poking around we discovered that Volunteers of America was founded in 1896 (and still rollin’ along apparently) and is said to have envisioned a movement dedicated to “reaching and uplifting people”. We dig that thought — and the song it inspired. Riffing on that concept, we’re connecting the dots — and the lineage — here to introduce China Kantner Isler, daughter of Grace Slick and Paul Kantner of said band. The photo here is China just a few weeks ago standing in front of the mural here on Masonic (@ Haight) of her folks’ iconic album (you’ve walked past it a million times, and if you haven’t, you should). We had the pleasure of conversating with China in a video interview recently, about her growing up in a hard-to-imagine childhood, being an actress and MTV-VJ, the ups, the downs, on up to today, her own journey to recovery and her admirable work as a spiritual director for people who are ready to find a way to a healthier, brighter reality. She is — what feels to be — a volunteer of humanity.
China: I’ve always been a spiritual person, a seeker. Ever since I was little. I’ve had an open mind and I really credit that to my parents. I was not raised to believe in anything that I’m taught just because I’m being taught it. To question everything. To investigate for myself to see what resonates, what’s meaningful, valuable, and purposeful for me. Go do you, find out who you are, and give back to the world with whatever gifts that you have.
HSV: People standing on the corner doing their thing … say they get tired of it and, yeah, they might want to get “straight”. But when you can live that free and easy — if you want to call it that — they’re in this quagmire of, “Okay, I’m ready to straighten up but I also don’t want to be part of the system because it’s fucked up.”
C: And that’s their choice, of course. It’s still a free country — I think. I hear you. It’s such an individual choice. My experience, and it’s only my experience, of over 40 years collectively of being involved in the recovery movement, advocacy movement, personal and professional — people respond to love. You can’t say to somebody, “You’re an addict. You have problems with substances. You need to do this, you need to do that.” You can care in a loving way and be there. If somebody is on the street and they’re comfortable doing whatever it might be, it’s not anyone’s job to go force somebody and say, “You need to get help!” They need to express it. But we need to have a place where they can go get help, where human beings can go get help. There are places, of course, but there’s a huge inequality from an economic standpoint. In recovery advocacy we work in policy and we work from spirituality. It’s meeting a person where they are and remaining curious and loving.
HSV: What would you like to say to the fine folks of Haight Street?
C: Thank you community members for your creative vision. It is budding again. I wasn’t there in the ‘60s but I’ve heard a lot about it from my parents and the magic is there now and it can even grow bigger.
“Make a career out of humanity … it will enrich your spirit as nothing else possibly can.”
— Martin Luther King
For video and full transcript of our interview with the lovely China … here you go!
CHINA KANTNER ISLER July 1, 2021
HAIGHT STREET VOICE: Hey y’all! We’re here with China Kantner Isler. We’re stoked. She is the amazing daughter of Grace Slick and Paul Kantner. Welcome to the show — it’s not really a show, it’s a thing, I don’t know what it is …
CHINA KANTNER ISLER: I like it! Nice to be here, Linda, thanks for having me.
HSV: Welcome. Yeah, I just read your article in the Saturday Evening Post that just came out, literally, just a couple days ago, right?
CKI: Mmhmm…
HSV: About what you’re doing these days, but I thought we would just start at the beginning. This is the Haight Street Voice … you were born in San Francisco, did you live in the house on Fulton Street, where were your beginnings here?
CKI: So, I was born in French Hospital in San Francisco on January 25, 1971, so I just turned 50 a few months ago …
HSV: Welcome to 50s …
CKI: Oh thank you, I love it so far! So I spent my first year or so in Bolinas. My parents bought a house in Bolinas right on the beach before I was born, and then we quickly moved to Sea Cliff, the Sea Cliff area of San Francisco and bought a house literally on the cliff, and that’s where I was raised with my dad til I was 18 and moved out of the house. My mom lived in Mill Valley in Marin, high atop a mountain there, and that house I was in pretty much all of my childhood and into my teens. So they separated when I was 4, so from Mill Valley to Sea Cliff …
HSV: I didn’t know it was that early.
CKI: Yeah, they separated — they were never married but they separated when I was around 4. My mom got married and then my dad met a woman and they had my brother when I was about 11 years old. So, yeah!
HSV: I was just looking for a couple pictures that I had (b&w of Paul, Grace and China). So, when, where’s this (laugh)
CKI: (laughs) I love that you’re busting these out! This is great!
HSV: (happy dance) I did my homework!
CKI: Yeah! I’m impressed. That is a photo I believe by the late great Roger Ressmeyer.
HSV: Yes, I think his name’s actually at the bottom but it got cut off here …
CKI: He was a lovely man and may he rest in peace. He was fantastic. He was a beloved pretty much member of the family really. And I think you can see his … see the umbrella in the background there — the photography umbrella? White?
HSV: It’s always hard to point with zoom … right there?
CKI: Yeah, you got it! (Laughs) I think that’s his photography umbrella … it looks like he would do. But anyway, that looks to be in Sea Cliff cuz I look like about 2 or 3. So yeah, that’s probably Sea Cliff.
HSV: So your parents never got married, eh? I always thought they were. Oh wow.
CKI: Nope. They never got married. I’m a bastard!
HSV: Bwaahahaha! I’ll cue the music over that …
CKI: (laughs) But yeah, my mom did get married — actually before and after my dad.
HSV: Hmm. Okay! So, you grew up here, lived in Sea Cliff. Now that black house on Fulton Street: did your mom — you know the one I’m talking about. Everyone says, “Oh, that’s the Jefferson Airplane house.” What’s the story of that house?
CKI: Oy, well there’s a lot that went on in that house! But it was used for sort of a base for the business. A lot of people worked out of there that worked for and with the band.
HSV: Did you spend time there?
CKI: I did! I spent time running around there, the halls of that wonderful place! And my mom and dad had actually lived there I think — if my memory serves me — off and on in this octagon room on the top. I don’t remember it very well but there are many stories that go along with that room. But it was a great house, you know, music going on and people coming in and out, and Bill Thompson worked out of there, may he rest in peace, the Airplane’s manager who I loved and was wonderful. So yeah, there were wonderful times in that place.
HSV: Going back to … well, Bob Weir, god bless him for doing the cover of my magazine and having an interview with me. We love Bobby. Did you hang out with the Dead? Do you remember hanging out with them at all, if we’re gonna go down the San Francisco road right now. Did you go see them, or do you remember anything about the Dead?
CKI: You’re not gonna believe this.
HSV: What? You’ve never seen them?
CKI: No, no, it’s really crazy.
HSV: I like crazy.
CKI: (laughs) Yeah! I mean it’s super odd, well let me …
HSV: I have this picture (Wavy Gravy, Paul, China at the North Beach festival) …
CKI: Oh yeah! Oh that was a great day! Look at Wavy. I love Wavy so much. And look at dad …
HSV: It’s such a great shot. Look at all of you, you just look fantastic! That’s North Beach Festival, right?
CKI: That was North Beach and that was 1997. I do remember that year, it being that year, yes. Thank you for putting that up. Wonderful. Wavy’s always been so kind to me. Known wavy since I was born.
HSV: I bet.
CKI: Off and on seen him, miss him, and haven’t seen him in a while. So this is so strange about the Dead. So I grow up going to Marin Country Day School, which is a private grammar school in Corte Madera, Marin. Then going to Redwood High School, which is a public high school in Larkspur, Marin. And I’m surrounded at both schools with Deadheads, of course. Airplane fans, too, and Jimi Hendrix and Santana and all that. But I meet all these Deadheads, you know, either my friends are Deadheads in grammar school of friends, a lot of them, in high school or their parents are or whatever. I literally only just saw the Dead for the first time in 2018.
HSV: What!? Get outta town!
CKI: Play, yeah. Yes, cuz I had a friend …
HSV: So you never saw Jerry?
CKI: So I don’t remember ever meeting Jerry. I think I met Bob once, but the one person that I do remember seeing many times was Mickey Hart, and I love Mickey. And so what happened a few years ago is that I had some friends here in L.A. who are total Deadheads and I thought, “You know what? This would … they really … I wanna call …” I called my mother’s accountant, actually, who’s worked with the Dead for many, many years, and I was like, “Could you help me out?” I felt really bad but I’m like, “Could you help us out in just getting tickets and maybe getting in touch with Mickey” because I hadn’t seen Mickey in a long time. “Just maybe, could it work?” So he was so wonderful. He not only got us tickets to Dodger Stadium …
HSV: Wow.
CKI: … which is gigantic. But we went backstage and I got to actually talk to Mickey for quite a while. And, you know, it was the coolest thing: they have a break mid-set and he and talked for like 20 minutes. I mean he came to me and zeroed in and gave me his total presence and time and wonderful reminiscing about my parents and about his love for them and we just had such a wonderful hang. And I’m looking out and I’m seeing, you know, thousands and thousands of people and this man is taking the time to speak to me. And I was just really appreciative of that, I have to tell you. He’s always been so wonderful, but in the middle of a show like that? I just thought it was really lovely. And I really appreciated him taking the time to meet my friends and give time to them as well. So that’s my Dead story!
HSV: There ya go! So I guess you were too young to actually go see the Airplane? I mean, the Starship of course. In fact I know you’re singing, in fact we should plug that right now, well not plug, but you’re playing, singing, you’re opening for Blue Oyster Cult, is that right? Did I get that right?
CKI: Yes, we’re co-headlining, they’ve traded spots co-headlining many times. Yeah, so it’s going to be at the Starlight Bowl in Burbank, California on July 25th, which is a Sunday. So it’s coming up very soon. The band is in full gear, touring a lot this year. They actually have a relatively new album out that’s fantastic. One of the songs is co-written by my mother called “It’s About Time”. David Freiberg of course is in the band, Donny Baldwin, Cathy Richardson — incredible singer, Jude Gold is the lead guitar player, and Chris Smith is on keyboards. So this is a band who was hand picked by my father and beloved by my dad. And they’re killin’ it! They’re doing such an amazing job. They sound great. They’re family to me, of course, so any chance they’re in L.A., I always take that chance to … they let me jump onstage and sing some songs, and then I also play drums!
HSV: I know! I saw, I was doing my homework about you and I saw your solo at the Marin Civic Auditorium and you’re drumming with — oh god, I’m forgetting his name!
CKI: Donny Baldwin.
HSV: There ya go!
CKI: Yeah, and Donny is …
HSV: You really DO play drums — I mean you’re banging away, standing up …
CKI: I do! You know, I never had lessons, it’s just a talent that I developed on my own when I was young. I just really enjoy it and, of course, for obvious reasons I love playing with the band because it brings me really close to my father in a way that …
HSV: Oh, I bet …
CKI: … nothing else does. So just to be able to carry on his legacy in this way …
HSV: (photo of China and Paul and VW bus …)
CKI: Oh yeah! (Laughs) Look at that!
HSV: Here, let me move myself out of the way so we can see you two (to other side of screen)
CKI: Look at those hippies!
HSV: What a fine father-daughter right there.
CKI: That was a great moment, yes. So yeah, we play, and they’re going to be playing actually in the area a lot over the course of this year. They’re going to be playing in Solano Beach, they’re going to be playing Ojai in this beautiful amphitheater in October, Agora Hills — all over the place down here, so it’s gonna be great!
HSV: The title of my album … my album, ha! — my last magazine is “A Renaissance is Rumbling”. I live a block away on Page and Masonic and the Haight-Ashbury is coming back. People are ready for music, people are so ready for the message of the music of your parents’ time. It’s really happening, you know, that people are I think taking better care of themselves, I hope — well, we’ll get to that. I just feel like people are really wanting to respect and give homage to the amazingness that people like your father and your mom gave us all over the years.
CKI: Yeah, you know, it’s true. And I wanted to make sure that we did not end this interview before I mentioned how much I appreciate the Haight-Ashbury for hosting a concert for my father in 2016 for the Haight Street Fair. I can’t tell you (hands on heart) what that meant to me, to be able to play with the band that day, and it was a perfectly bright — were you there that day?
HSV: No, in 2016? No, I was not there that year. I think I was in New York.
CKI: Okay. It was June 16th if I remember right, and my dad had died in January of that year.
HSV: Our buddy, Michael Xavier — Hi, Michael! — he runs that thing.
CKI: Michael, thank you again! And there were so many people: London Breed was there and presented an award for my father to me onstage that day, which really choked me up, you know, for his service to the City for all of those years. But the crowd, I gotta tell you …
HSV: (photo of Paul and China at 2ish years old)
CKI: Ah, there we are … (sweet laugh). The crowd was huge and throwing love our way like you can’t believe and I gotta tell you, like, my heart! I just looked across this sea of people in the Haight and I was so grateful to every store owner, every person who lives in the Haight, everybody who loved the band and my father … just the show out was extremely moving and I want to thank you. And I want to thank anybody watching who’s part of the Haight Street community because it meant the world to me, and the band. It meant the world to the band as well.
HSV: Awww (prayer pose). So when did you … since we’re starting here and I know you ended up in L.A. So when did the — another one of my questions: the famous people that your parents hung out with, like David Crosby … did you hang out with him …
CKI: Yes. David I talked to as recently as a few years ago maybe.
HSV: He strikes me as a wonderfully remarkable person, for all he’s been through.
CKI: Yes. He’s not only remarkable publicly, but he’s like my dad in the specific sense that there are things David has done for my family that nobody knows about, and, you know what I mean, it’s like the secret service type of thing, which I love to call it, you know? It’s doing it without getting caught and nobody knowing, you know? Lovely acts of kindness and service that he has done that I will never forget. And I know that, you know, there’s been some trouble in CSN and CSNY I should say, and I know that now is a very difficult time as far as the relationships in the band or between David and some. Of course that’s none of my business and I actually don’t know the ins and outs of it but I can just tell you that forever he’s been a dear, dear friend to both my mother and my father for 55 years or however long it’s been.
HSV: How’s your mama doing? How’s Grace?
CKI: I just wanted to say, Jan, David’s wife, is so lovely. [Grace] is fine! She’s been sober for a long time, thank god, so that completely turned her world around — 23 years ago she got sober to marked difference, as with anybody. Everything turned around for her, and she’s been painting the last 30 years. She retired from singing in 1989, after they did the Jefferson …
HSV: [Grace and China photo]
CKI: (laughs) Great, yeah, that was from People’s Magazine. I remember that shoot.
HSV: And you were painting I think. You can’t see the paints but there are paints down there.
CKI: Yes! That was People! And you know what, actually I think that was right after the fire in Mill Valley. Our house burned down in ’92, and that I the rented house is Tiburon I believe is where that photo was taken.
HSV: I think I see a painting in the background there. How old are you there?
CKI: Oh god, 22, 23? A lot of makeup on so I look older. But yeah, she’s been painting. She’s an incredible painter, I don’t know if you’ve seen her work.
HSV: No I haven’t, but it doesn’t surprise me.
CKI: She’s pretty much self-taught from a very young age. She always painted her whole life. Even though her professional career forever until 1989 she was singing primarily, she was always drawing, sketching, painting and is really a great artist. So she really gave her all starting in 1989 to that process. She loves it. She loves to paint.
HSV: So it was very therapeutic for her.
CKI: Very therapeutic. It’s really her outlet. For her, you know, she’s always said, which is true for her, that’s her form of meditation. That’s really her creative outlet for the last however long it’s been, 32 year. And she’s always needed a creative outlet. She needs to stay busy and productive in a very creative way to stay sane and happy and all of it.
HSV: Was she born here? I should know that but …
CKI: No, she was not. She was born in Illinois, spent some time in Los Angeles and then went to Palo Alto actually, and grew up mainly in Palo Alto, and then moved to San Francisco.
HSV: And then, boom!
CKI: Yeah!
HSV: Okay, so that’s the SF thing. Do you still consider San Francisco your home in your heart? Okay, so then you ended up in L.A. … I guess I’m trying to find when did you leave and go to L.A.?
CKI: So I started acting when I was 8, I started training in the theater seriously when I was about 8 years old and kept training all the way through high school very seriously in a theater program that was highly progressive at Redwood High School by a teacher who I still love and adore, Michelle Swanson. She was — we were doing Shakespeare at one point and then we did an original play about AIDS in 1986, where at the time, kids had to have permission slips to come to this play. And so Michelle was wanting, obviously, to get the word out and really talk about AIDS and normalize it with love and intelligence — a real wise and emotional intelligence, and we did and she did. It was profound and highly progressive, as I said.
I learned so much from Michelle and during that time in high school I got hired as an MTV VJ. So I got hired, literally, freshman year of high school, which was pretty incredible. My first job, very lucky!
HSV: (laugh) Hello!
CKI: Yeah! My summer job for 4 years in high school was flying to New York with a friend of my mom’s who was my guardian and we either submitted an apartment in New York City, or stayed in a hotel, and we were put up by MTV. So I did that for 5 years, from 15 to 20 years old.
HSV: Now I’ve got to ask: was that a party scene? I don’t know if you want to get into the whole drug use and all of that, but was it a big party scene or were you being pretty straight and narrow?
CKI: No, you know at that time I was pretty straight and narrow. I had gotten sober. My first round of trying to get sober was actually right at the same time. So I was 15 when I got sober in a 12-step program the first time. So I was sober the whole way through.
HSV: Thank god, because that could’ve been, you know, party central.
CKI: Oh, it would’ve been, and I also would’ve lost my job. I’m the type of drinker my job would’ve been gone. So I actually had a really great time in New York because I remembered everything and I was able to experience going to clubs and in those days, you know, nobody was checking ID.
HSV: Oh, I know!
CKI: And so, in New York, I was going into the Limelight, I was going to China Club, I was going to Nell’s, I was going all over to the hotspots in New York. And it was so wonderful because I would go either with my guardian or actually, Downtown Julie Brown — remember her?
HSV: Yes!
CKI: She was a VJ on MTV. She sort of like took me under her wing because she was older than me and really just took a liking to me and looked at me like a little sister. And she knew that I was sober so she really protected and insulated me when we were out in the City because I needed to be.
HSV: You just mentioned Nell’s — cuz I lived there ’86 to ’94 in New York City.
CKI: Oh! You remember Nell’s?
HSV: Oh yeah! And the Limelight! Jean-Michel Basquiat and Keith Haring were still tagging buildings. I just caught the tail end of all that magical stuff. Like SoHo was still sketchy, which now it’s Disneyland. Those were amazing times for people in our 50s — I mean I’m at 59 and you’re at 50 — but people in our 50s (laughing) that was a magical time to be there because it was still raw, downtown was still raw. Did you ever go to Lonestar Cafe with the iguana on top of it?
CKI: I didn’t.
HSV: Anyway, New York — girls like us coming from the West Coast and getting your chops in New York is a really amazing thing to do. I’m grateful for it.
CKI: Yeah, I mean just hanging out in the Village, going to the Bottom Line, and for me, investigating Betsey Johnson for the first time, coming upon her store …
HSV: Yes! On 8th Street, yes!
CKI: The City, like you said, it was a magical time. All the concerts in Central Park reminded me of the concerts in Golden Gate Park.
HSV: Exactly!
CKI: I remember it was like Eddie Brickell I went to go see and I think the 10,000 Maniacs might’ve played there too. It was just such a great time. And the walking …!
HSV: Oh everywhere, cuz we were use to this (up-down) …
CKI: I mean I walked in San Francisco but nowhere near. You can walk 90 blocks in New York in a few hours. I put on my fanny pack — remember those? In the ‘80s, they were all big, and the Walkman, and just cruise through the City and it just felt so good.
HSV: I still call my AirPods a Walkman … Linda, Jesus! (laughs) Walkman? What?
CKI: (laughs).
HSV: So MTV served you well then. I was thinking maybe draw somebody … I mean, that’s great! Thank god you had that job.
CKI: So leading to L.A., that’s where I was headed to tell you …
HSV: Yeah… thank you.
CKI: I got a job KRQR in San Francisco at the radio station being a DJ for a few years as a teenager and into my 20s, and then I moved to L.A. right around when I turned 21, and that’s when I started working professionally in film and television.
HSV: Okay.
CKI: Just to give you the timeline.
HSV: No, that’s great. That’s wonderful. Okay, so then I wanted to go into the recovery thing. You’ve been in recovery almost 24 years, right?
CKI: Yes.
HSV: Which is amazing at 50, god bless you, that’s amazing.
CKI: Thank you.
HSV: Then, as I mentioned, you did the Saturday Evening Post interview, which just came out a couple days ago and let’s talk a little bit about where you are now, what you’re doing, and those three words that I wrote down: Meaning, Value, and Purpose. And then I have a quote that you said: “Being a spiritual director is a lot of listening and witnessing and being a non-anxious presence and a compassionate listener, and it’s not hierarchical. That’s what I love about it: it is equal standing between two people. It’s journeying with somebody, being an educated, helpful spiritual friend.” I love that.
CKI: Well thank you. I learned all of it from my mentors. I mean, you know, of course I can’t take credit. I have been taught by some of the best mentors there are, in my opinion. Those words and, more importantly, those actions are the heart of being a spiritual director.
HSV: (photo of China with priest collar on)
CKI: (laughs) That was, just aside, that was the March for Our Lives in San Francisco, the march event in 2018, so that’s pretty recent, that photo. It was wonderful. Cathy Richardson and I — Cathy wrote a speech, we actually both contributed to it, and we gave a speech that day, which was such an honor, and the march was meaningful.
So yeah, the collar is very important to me. It’s so interesting about the collar because …
HSV: Well, it is, in my brain, China, immediately I think it’s a priest, it’s a man. I do have to sort of adjust my brain just because … it’s in my brain.
CKI: And that’s my part, you know, the rebel forces as a woman, is wearing a collar as a woman. I mean that’s important, it’s important for women to see and it’s also important to be able to feel like they can do. The benefit of growing up on Haight Street — you know, I actually worked at a clothing store on Haight Street.
HSV: Which one?
CKI: It was called Solo back in the early ‘90s, which was a wonderful experience. I know I diverted a little bit …
HSV: That’s okay, this is the Haight Street Voice, you could talk about the Haight all day. We don’t mind!
CKI: I had to say it because it was such a wonderful experience. Okay, where was I?
HSV: I don’t know — did they sell collars there? (Laugh)
CKI: Right, the collar. Oh, that’s what I was going to say: I feel really fortunate to not grown up in a religious household because by the time I got to seminary, I started studying theology at Loyola Marymount University in the early 2000s.
HSV: What brought you there? Were you searching for meaning? Did you have a calling like “I need to find meaning in life”?
CKI: What brought me there is that I had just gotten sober and I did work the 12 Steps and I was so blown away by the 12 Steps in and of themselves but most importantly what it did for me internally, the change and the shift and the transformation that happened in my mind and my spirit from working those steps, the experience was profound.
So I had never read the Bible ever, I wasn’t raised with that. I’d always been a spiritual person — a seeker, put it that way. Ever since I was little I had been a seeker and I’ve never — I’ve always had an open mind and I really credit that actually to my parents in the sense that I was raised to have an open mind. I was not raised to believe in anything that I’m taught just because I’m being taught it. To question everything. To investigate for myself to see what resonates, again, what’s meaningful, valuable and purposeful for me. And pretty much without saying those words, that’s how I was raised. Go do you, find out who you are, and give back to the world with whatever gifts that you have, whatever passions you have — go do that. And they were very free with that. They didn’t tell me what to do. They were very supportive, for instance, of my acting career, which I was very serious about — until I got sober. So that was a 20-year career. [They were] very behind it. Then when I got sober everything changed from working the steps. It was a profound moment. And so I really wanted to study theology because of the 12-Step work, I was really fascinated by spirituality. Because 12-Step programs are not religious programs. Contrary to a lot of belief, they are spiritual programs, spiritually based. So you can believe in nothing, atheist, agnostic, you can be completely religious, you can be spiritual but not religious … you can be whatever you are: gay/straight, black/white, rich/poor— doesn’t matter, which is what I love about 12-step programs in and of themselves highly inclusive. And so, I thought, “You know, I want to go deeper on a professional. I want to get educated by all sorts of people from every religion, every background, every race, every sexuality, generation — I want to be educated. I had never gone to college, I went right into working as I said, at 15, so I never did that. So I went to Santa Monica College, I started there at community college and then I transferred to Loyola Marymount University, which was a fantastic experience. I was taught by pretty much an inter-faith crew as far as professors.
HSV: In your interview, you announced that you are a Christian-Buddhist. Is that correct?
CKI: Yes. And I want to be clear that, you know, there are so many different traditions within Christianity and Buddhism, and so I identify as a contemplative Christian or a mystic Christian, into mysticism as far as Christianity. And then I also identify as a Theravada Buddhist in terms of that. So I’m a hybrid. I wanted to be a sponge and I wanted to learn. And I went in — which was so great — I went in not really knowing what I would do. I wasn’t concentrated on, “I’m gonna go here and now I’m gonna plan my future.” I just wanted to take it all in and see where it took me. So I did.
And then I took many years off after undergrad to work in rehabs and sober livings, which has been fantastic, and now I’m a recovery coach. But many years ago around 2014 I applied to seminary because my experience was so incredible at LMU, and I felt called internally, very deeply, to serve as a minister and also a spiritual director. So off and on, I’ve been in school doing that since that time. I took a long break when my dad died, I just needed to grief and work but also take time to grieve, which was really important. But it was also a way, I realized when I did it that it’s important to model that, as a clergy person or any leader for that matter, of self-care, community care, really taking in the time that I needed and not just blast though school because somebody’s saying I should finish? I mean I just don’t even relate to that. So I took off the time that I needed.
I’m at Starr King School for the Ministry now in Berkeley, which is a social justice oriented school, which I am loving. I’ve been there for about a year and a half, so I’m pretty close to the end, not there yet, but I’m really looking forward to being a spiritual director not only in a one-on-one practice but also taking it into rehabs and sober livings. I really would /like to help to influence the implementation of a spiritual director in rehabs and sober livings across the country because it does not exist. You see it spotty, like Hazelden has always been ahead of the curve. Hazelden actually has a spiritual director, Spiritual Care Professional is the title of the job at Hazelden. But it’s few and far between. You might see a spiritual counselor at a couple places in Santa Monica or like I say, over at Hazelden, but I want it to be normative, I want it to be across the country.
HSV: Let me say this, I don’t know if you saw my little interview with Dr. Dave in the Bob Weir edition of Haight Street Voice …
CKI: I did.
HSV: This whole of — you know, there’s been a huge fentanyl epidemic here. Hopefully it’s sort of slowing down, but at the beginning of this year, 5 of the street kids that I knew are gone. Dr. Dave said that even marijuana is being laced with fentanyl. I don’t understand that one. He doesn’t understand that one. Who does that? Who laces marijuana? A lot of these kids on the streets, and I’ll just speak to this, a lot of them, well 2 of them have died — well they were alcoholics — alcohol I think is probably the worst problem on street because they can get it easily, but I don’t want to poo-poo anybody’s reality. The point is, a lot of them go to rehab, they go down, they clean up, but they come straight back because they don’t want to be part of the system. And quick frankly, it’s hard to be in the world and have a job — let alone recovering and be a normal person getting a job. So a lot of it is rebounding, they go get cleaned up but they end up right here, you know, you’ll see them a month later and there they are with their beer or whatever it is. and I thought maybe you could speak to that. How do we fix that? What’s the beginning of that? Is it the spiritual counseling? Is it the softening of the edges?
CKI: There are so many moving parts to that. Ultimately it’s a systemic problem in our society. Ultimately you’re looking at the healthcare system, the deep inequalities that exist, you’re looking at stigma with certain groups of people. A great example, which is a heartbreaking example that we’re all really aware of and maybe not, but I can just speak to this is when the crack epidemic happened, it didn’t get the attention that the opioid epidemic is getting because, guess what? The opioid epidemic affects a lot of white kids.
HSV: Rich white kids sometimes, you know …
CKI: Also poor, definitely also poor … all areas all over our country
HSV: Yes, you’re right.
CKI: But yes, you’re right. So it’s a racial issue, it’s a deeply flawed system in terms of healthcare and treatment. Treatment is the problem — the access to treatment is a big problem. Being able to afford it. Being able to get enough time spent so that you can get well in rehab and not get booted out and not get a certain period of time because the insurance is saying that you have to go. And then of course if you don’t have insurance. A lot of people are screwed just by that. If you don’t have insurance how are you gonna be able to go and get quality care? There’s just a few of the problems.
HSV: My question is this because I know, I mean I’ve lived in this neighborhood for literally almost 35 years now, so I do know a lot of the kids, and a lot of them aren’t kids, I call them kids. I mean one of them I interviewed his name is Coins, and Coins is probably 48 or something …
CKI: Oh, I saw that interview!
HSV: Yeah, he’s so great. I love Coins. Hi Coins! But a lot of these people get so used to standing on the corner, smoking some pot, having some beers, taking some acid, and then they get tired of it, and yeah they want to get straight, “straight” whatever, whatever, straight. To me, that part of the missing puzzle piece is when you can live that free and “easy” if you want to call it that — a lot of them are happy out here. I’m going to be real with you. A lot of them are okay on whatever they’re doing.
CKI: Yeah.
HSV: But I think they reach a point where, “I can’t … this is not sustainable.”
CKI: Yeah.
HSV: So they’re in this quagmire of, “Okay, I’m ready to sort of buckle up and straighten up. I’m getting older, but I also don’t want to be part of the system because it’s fucked up.”
CKI: And that’s their choice, of course. It’s still a free country — I think, in that way (laughs), honestly. And I hear you. It’s such an individual choice. My experience, and it’s only my experience, but my experience of over 40 years collectively of being involved in the recovery movement, advocacy movement, and also, you know, personal and professional — people respond to love. The tough love thing doesn’t really work well, at all. And thank god that’s changing a lot. So what has come about in the last many years, which is wonderful, is medication assisted treatment, which is looking at harm reduction, and not saying to someone, “You have to get off everything or else!” But looking at it from the more gentle, and actually proven successful in many other countries, safe injection sites, for instance. Providing that in the cities for people. That is doing a lot of good and that could also be really beneficial nationwide.
So there’s a lot of policy — problems with policy in that sense that that would help a lot across this country. Again, it’s such a personal experience. You can’t say to somebody, “You’re an addict. You have problems with substances. You need to do this, you need to do that.” You can care in a loving way, I’ve found, and to be there for somebody, but you can’t force somebody. They have to be able to say for themselves, “I am struggling.” Like you were saying: if somebody is on the street and they’re either comfortable doing that or that’s what they want or whatever it might be, it’s not anyone’s job to go force somebody and say, “You’re this and you need to get help!” They need to express it. But we need to have a place where they can go get help, human beings can go get help. There are places, of course, but on the topics of what we were saying before, there’s a huge inequality from an economic standpoint — there’s just so much to … and that’s what we do in recovery advocacy is we work in policy, or we work from spirituality. And like you said, from a spiritual direction standpoint, it’s a highly effective field, and look, here’s the thing that blew me away is when I was in seminary, as I had been in seminary, I was sitting there and I’m writing all these papers and I’m thinking, “Wait a minute. Spiritual doesn’t just mean God.” That’s one of the things, I think there’s this misconception that if you’re spiritual it means that you believe in God. That’s not true.
HSV: Right.
CKI: It means a lot of different things like we were talking about before. It can mean that the sacred is nature and it doesn’t have the title of a god, it has the title of the ocean, or it has the trees or, you know, you can be a witch, or you can be Jewish, you can be islamic — you know. So being a “spiritual” person is such a wide open field and also so personal to each human being. What Meaning, Value, and Purpose holds for that human being is important, it’s individual in the sense that when you’re working somebody, it’s really important to be aware of where they are at — not where you think they should be at, but working with where they are at the time.
HSV: Let me ask you this: how do you feel about — if somebody’s going to go sober, obviously marijuana is legal now, is there a line like, “Well, I won’t work with anybody, especially …” and even Dr. Dave speaks to the whole psychedelic mushroom therapy and the new psychedelic treatment that people are starting to believe is actually helping people recover … is there a hard line for you? You know what I’m saying? Can you speak to that?
CKI: Yeah, I mean, you know what? I don’t feel that it’s my place to tell another human being what they ought to be doing. Like just generally speaking, I feel that — especially as a spiritual director — like I said before, I’ve been taught to work with where people are. “Meet them where they are” is the statement, which I love.
HSV: I love that too. That’s great.
CKI: Right? It’s meeting a person where they are and remaining curious and loving. That’s how I work with people, whether it’s in 12-step programs, the women I work with there, or whether it’s even talking to my husband and trying to work through an argument, you know what I mean? Or with family, or with … just generally, I feel it is not my job or my place or my business to even go there. It’s my job to love people. I honestly feel that. It’s my job to love and to listen and to remain curious. And also to ask really important questions. I think that spiritual direction has a lot to do with asking wise questions, and having the person themselves come up with their own wisdom and their own answers because it’s in them and I trust that.
HSV: Yeah.
CKI: I think human beings are 100 percent capable of coming up with their own decisions for their own lives.
HSV: A really good girlfriend of mine, she’s 75 now, hi Cynthia Johnston, she was a raging alcoholic in her earlier days and she says she could not have gotten off the booze if it hadn’t been for marijuana and, you know, she smokes all day, that’s her thing. And we were in Tahoe a couple weeks ago because our girlfriend lives up there in this beautiful house, thank you Christina Soloski. But we were all talking and I’m not a big pot smoker. I smoke pot but not huge on it, but anyway, we were talking about opening up the space to begin a healing conversation. I wrote it down. It is about opening up the space where people can just talk about wherever they’re at. That is like the number one thing of everything. Like you said, when you’re arguing with your husband, or you’re having a weird day in the car — whatever it is, it’s just sort of creating space.
CKI: Yeah, I mean, think about it, even the argument thing … at least what I’ve learned is that if I’m getting tense and I’m being defensive or if I’m …
HSV: … feeling attacked …
CKI: Yeah, feeling attacked or really starting in that debate mode, I have to stop and pause and take a breath, and hold space for myself and the other person. And that’s a huge part of spiritual direction. So to answer the question, it’s not my job to say to somebody, “No, you should stop smoking weed today …” that has to come from the person. But I do think it’s equally as important to not avoid the topic because if somebody is concerned about themselves and they bring up a question like, “You know, I think I’m drinking too much”, that usually doesn’t happen if a person isn’t having a problem, you know what I’m saying? So again, I like to trust their wisdom, and then I like to ask questions like, “Well, that’s interesting. Okay, so why might you be feeling that. Tell me more about that. Let’s go deeper with that. Is it blocking your creativity? Is it getting in the way of your relationships?” I know the questions to ask around drugs and alcohol, and there are a lot of them. Just to investigate. It’s not to tell them what to do but just trying to weed through it by asking smart questions.
HSV: So this is a very personal question and you don’t have to answer it but you said you were sober and then at 26 you went off the rails or whatever and then you obviously got back on it and you’re doing great now. But was it like an emotional thing, was it something where you finally realized, “I can no longer do this.” Was there a hard line where you just knew “this is it.”
CKI: Yeah, I mean, look, I had been around 12-step programs since I was 8.
HSV: Wow.
CKI: My mother started trying to get sober in 1979 and that’s when I was 8. So she would bring me with her to meetings all the time and I loved it. I loved the people she was surrounded by. I fell in love with it honestly at that age because everybody was so kind, and everybody was clear headed. They were present and clear and wise and funny and loving. And I just like, “I love this group of people!” So by the time I had a problem at 15, I wanted to go back, I wanted to go to this community because they had been so good to me. But back to your question, yeah, there was something that triggered me falling off the wagon, and that was a breakup. So very often is the sort of catalyst for that kind of relapse. And my drug of choice was alcohol. And it almost killed me. I had a lot of trauma at the time as well that had been not dealt with from my childhood and teen years, so it was kind of the perfect storm and he broke up with me, which is always harder, right, than when you leave. So I was hurt, I was angry, I was heartbroken …
HSV: It triggered all that stuff, the anger at your parents for not being there, all that kind of stuff, right? Abandonment stuff, right?
CKI: It’s abandonment, yes, but it was also shame. The honest thing is that it was mostly shame because I knew that I had been not kind to this man. I knew that he wasn’t delusional. He was breaking up with me for very valid reasons, so I was full of shame. I didn’t yet know how to process something like that in a healthy way. So what I knew to do was to get angry at myself and then take it out on myself.
HSV: Well, god bless him. He turned into an angel right, basically?
CKI: He did.
HSV: He sent you that way …
CKI: He did. And thank god I lived through it, and thankfully it only took me about 9 months or so and then I checked myself into rehab because I really almost did myself in.
HSV: Wow.
CKI: Yeah. It was really bad and I engaged in a lot of self harm and reckless drunk driving, and just a lot of scary stuff.
HSV: So on that note, you don’t have to keep going down the rabbit hole (try to find a photo)
CKI: I love that you got organized with all these photos!
HSV: It’s kind of fun, it’s my thing.
CKI: It’s great!
HSV: This one is hilarious! (change photo to China at about 4 years and Grace making goofy faces). That explains a lot right there!
CKI: Yeah!
HSV: That is just so awesome! Okay we’ll leave this one, it’s a good one for the exit. I always like to say to people at the end is that this is the Haight Street Voice and I’m trying to give a voice to the people whether it’s the merchants, the neighbors, the street kids, the artists, you know, whoever it is, and I always want to say as the interviewee, what would you like to say to the kind people of the Haight Street Voice, and oh, it is “hyper-local with a global perspective.” So it’s about community, taking care of our community, you know don’t just step over a homeless person, you say hello to your neighbor, hopefully you know the grocer, really knowing your neighborhood. I mean I’ve lived here a long time and I’m very lucky that I get to know everybody. But what would like to say to the Haight community in particular, but it reaches farther — even Finland subscribed to the magazine, that was exciting. That sense of what the Haight-Ashbury was, I mean it was magical. It still is magical. That seed of hope, that seed of music and art and creativity — and yet there is this sickness with what you’re working in, and god bless you for helping people that are, you know, having a hard time with drugs and alcohol — what would you like to say to the fine folks of the Haight Street community as well as the world?
CKI: First of all, thank you, current occupants and neighbors and community members, thank you for your creative vision that is not only in existence now but I’m seeing from the magazine and from what I see in the news is that it is budding again. And I’m sort of taking from Bob Weir and also Dr. Dave, from this latest issue because I read it and I loved what both of them had to say about Haight Street in general, the history, and the ebbs and flows that I have seen personally. Of course I wasn’t there in the ‘60s but I’ve heard a lot about it from my parents and other people, and the magic is there now and it can even grow bigger. I can’t wait to see what you will all do in these coming months and years, and for the renaissance this is Haight Street and has alway been Haight Street, it’s this kind of constant rebirth, reincarnation over and over and over again, and I wish you health, I wish you happiness, I wish you boundless creativity in the months and years ahead. And I can’t wait to come up again soon and see as many people as I can in the community cuz the last time I was there was probably 2 years ago. I always come to the Haight when I’m in town and I would love to meet some of you especially through Linda because Linda, you know everybody there (laughs), and I would love to meet all of you!
HSV: You do have a direct invitation from Nancy Gille who runs the Doolan-Larson building which is the corner of Haight and Ashbury and is a national treasure at this point via the SF Heritage. It’s a sacred space now. Nobody can fuck with it. You can’t turn it into a Gap or apartments …
CKI: Right.
HSV: And you have a personal invitation to come get a tour and hang out.
CKI: I would love to.
HSV: And we’re looking for an artist in residence. They’re doing artists in residency and Nancy was saying if we could get the healing factor … in fact, here’s the direct quote: “Would you please ask China that the SF Heritage would very much like to show her the Doolan-Larson house and the artist-in-residency program as I believe a spiritual focus would be a phenomenal focus for a future “artist” or “healer”. There you go!
CKI: Wow! Absolutely! It would be my honor. I would love for instance too — thank you for that invitation — I would love to meet Jeremy Fish who I didn’t even know until someone — my father passed away and somebody said, “Hey, Jeremy Fish is this amazing artist. He painted your dad on his apartment in North Beach.”
HSV: Probably Joel Selvin. I don’t know if you know Joel?
CKI: Oh yeah, I know Joel from a long time ago. I haven’t seen Joel in a long time but he’s been a family friend forever. But somebody alerted me to it and I was so touched by that. And then now I follow Jeremy on Instagram and of course I saw his most recent, his artist-in-residence, the amazing artwork that he created …
HSV: He’s in the magazine, the TOC page.
CKI: I saw that! I mean I would love to meet more people and see what’s happening now. I would love to say to you, if you guys would be so kind I would love to come into more stores and art spaces and see music and literary talks and whatever it might be because my dad was so planted there. My dad even more than my mom because he remained in San Francisco.
HSV: Oh yeah, he was over in North Beach mostly, yeah.
CKI: Oh North Beach! He loved North Beach. But … I would be honored. I love you guys. I wish you everything I already said. I wish you love and peace and creativity and a new renaissance to be born especially after this long year that we’ve had that’s been so tough. I’m just so happy for everybody to be again and hugging and creating — it’s just wonderful!
HSV: Alright! Get your ass up here, China!
CKI: Yes! I will!
HSV: And thank you so much for being here. It’s truly an honor and I can’t wait to meet you in person. And it would be really cool to have your healing presence in the neighborhood. I think people might even listen to you a little bit harder because you’re dad and more are super-cool folks. Maybe that’s the extra little … (laugh)
CKI: I would love it. I would just be honored. So let’s keep …
HSV: … Let’s keep the conversation going.
CKI: Yes!
HSV: Peace to you! Thank you so much!
CKI: Thank you so much, Linda. I so appreciate your time.
HSV: Yeah yeah yeah! We’ll talk soon!
