Counterculture Museum: “We’ve got stories to tell…” 

Just in time for Spring, there’s a Counterculture Musuem about to bloom on the corner of Haight and Ashbury. Jerry and Estelle Cimino — the folks behind the Beat Museum in North Beach for 20 years — have been dreaming up this new adventure since 2019, and when this particular location opened up, the synchronicity wasn’t lost on them. A big fan of the Beat Museum, I had a lovely hang with Jerry and Estelle back in January as they gave me a tour of the new joint, still a work-in-progress at that point.. They’re aiming for a late-April, early May opening, so stay tuned!!

Jerry Cimino: Counterculture is as old as civilization. The Greeks and the Romans had counterculture. We’re going to talk about what’s the difference between a counterculture and a subculture, and how the subculture sometimes becomes a true-blown society. 

We’re gonna start here (gesturing to front area). This will be a Beat Generation case because that’s where we’re starting the story. We have the Beat Museum in North Beach. 

Haight Street Voice: Yay Beat Museum! 

JC: And the Beats became the Hippies. We’ll have a video here so people have the chance to review and understand the lineage of what happened in this era. 

Then as we head on back, we’ll be doing the Civil Rights era. We’ll talk about what happened on the national stage as well as what was happening here in the San Francisco Bay Area, because the Bay Area has a very rich tradition.

We’ll have rotating exhibitions here in the back. The first one we expect to present will be the San Francisco Oracle. We have eight of the original twelve Oracles. This is a magnificent one of the Houseboat Summit. We’ve got a lot of stories to tell!

HSV: What is the task of counterculture moving forward? 

JC: It’s the artists and their free spirits and the young who push society forward. It’s the people who put their own passion and perspective into things to show what can be, and typically it’s been the young. Every generation wants to do something different than its parents did. And in the sense of the counterculture, people try out different things and sometimes things stick.

For me, counterculture is basically people who think that they can have a sense of their own lives, what’s important to them, live in a more free way and dig into what they wanna dig into — whatever it may be. It’s kind of like the spirit of the Beats. “We don’t care who you are, what you look like, or what you’re into as long as you’re not hurting anybody else. Come join our party!” 

That’s why the Hippies were so embracing. That was the whole idea behind Woodstock. Five-hundred thousand young people show up and there’s no violence, there’s no trouble. There’s people getting high or doing whatever they’re doing, but nobody got uptight about it. Even in the rainstorm, it was just a good weekend for most people. 

 And the legacy lives on.

We’ve had a museum for 20 years, we know how to tell a story. Estelle and I have talked about a lot of things we could be doing with the rest of our lives, but for us this is important because it empowers people. It let’s people realize they’re not alone and you can learn from what happened in the past and you can make choices for the future. That’s why we’re doin’ it. 

HSV: I know a lot of people are excited that this is going to be a place you can come hang out, you can learn, you can read a book. It’s a place to land. 

JC: Yeah, the people in the neighborhood have a special place. People who are visiting from overseas or other parts of the country, they might just be here for a day and they’re gonna wanna tour the museum and see all the exhibits and spend maybe a few hours here. It’s the locals that’ll probably come for book signings and other events that we’ll be hosting. We’re going to cater to a lot of different levels — just like we’ve done at the Beat Museum. Meeting people where they are and being open to what people want. We don’t claim to have all the answers for anything, and we’re very much open to ideas!

HSV: Estelle, what does counterculture mean to you?

EC: I really believe counterculture is about going against the grain of what is considered “normal.” It’s people living their truth, it’s people being authentic to who they are and what they want to happen in their lives and the lives of others in the world. It isn’t always what the government tells us or what parents tell us growing up. 

When I was a kid I was way too young to be part of hippies and everything else, but I saw all the hippies and I admired the fact that they seemed so free and they could do what they wanted. It was just so appealing. I told my parents, “When I grow up I wanna be a hippie!” I really didn’t want to be a hippie, but I wanted to live that lifestyle, be that person who could live free without somebody telling them what to do all the time and how to do it.  I believe we all should live our authentic selves. Of course there’s some things … don’t kill one another, don’t harm one another — I believe in those things. But beyond that, it’s what is your truth and try to move towards that truth.

JC: We’re a history museum and we don’t shy away from the truth. History teaches you. 

HSV: And this museum is going to inspire people to remember.

JC: We hope so! We hope people remember what happened in the ‘60s and reclaim their power to make positive change for themselves, for our society, and for the world. 

EC: We want to empower people — inspire and empower. We don’t want to fight against things, we want to fight for what we want. Let’s take action for what we want. That’s what we’re about: Showing how the past can inspire today and the future. The stories of the past are wonderful. We’re excited to tell those stories. 

HSV: What do you want to say to the Haight community?

JC: We’re thrilled to be here, and we really have felt an extremely warm welcome by people in the community — from other merchants, people who live in the neighborhood, people who literally live on the street. We just want to be a part of your community. We didn’t live here in the ‘60s, and yet we understand, we think, what the story is, and we invite you and encourage you to tell us your story, tell us what we might be missing. What’s the flavor of this? What’s the twist to that story? We want to tell the good, powerful, unique story that literally started at this intersection (pointing out the window) and went around the world! 

EC: Exactly. And we could still do the same thing today. We can make change!

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

COUNTERCULTURE MUSEUM MARCH 2025: VIDEO AND FULL TRANSCRIPT

HSV: Alright y’all, it’s Linda from Haight Street Voice and we’re here at the Counterculture Museum — we’re not live — with Estelle, Kira, and Jerry. 

Jerry Cimino: Hello!

HSV: And look at this place y’all since the last video I took. Wait, I didn’t even take a video last time. This is the first they’re seeing it! 

JC: Is it? 

HSV: Yep!

JC: Well, we just got these cases in a week ago and they came from the DeYoung Museum and the Legion of Honor, so we were thrilled to be able to get ‘em. It’s a significant amount of real estate that we’ve got to be able to put stuff in. And I can give you a couple minutes to show you the plan. [indicates to follow him]. 

This is where people will be invited in. We’re gonna have a wall here talking about the history of counterculture. And what’s interesting is that counterculture is as old as civilization. The Greeks and the Romans had counterculture. And we’re going to talk about what’s the difference between a counterculture and a subculture, and how the subculture sometimes becomes a true-blown, you know, society basically. 

[continues walking] We’re gonna start here. This will be a Beat Generation case cuz that’s where we’re starting the story. We have the Beat Museum in North Beach. 

HSV: Yeah Beat Museum! 

JC: And the Beats became the Hippies. We’ll probably have a lower case here. I don’t think we’re gonna need one this large. And then this will be a larger case here. There will be a video here that people will have the chance to review and understand the lineage of what happened in this era. 

HSV: Right. 

JC: And then as we head on back, we will be doing the Civil Rights era and we’ll talk about what happened on the national stage as well as what was happening here in the San Francisco Bay Area cuz the Bay Area has a very rich tradition. So we’re gonna talk about that. 

HSV: Black Panthers … 

JC: Absolutely! And we’ve got a lot of stuff already that we’re prepared to put in some of these cases. We’re still sourcing things, we have friends sending us stuff every day. But we have a lot that we’ve collected over the years that we’ve already got ready to go in these cases once we decide which case oughta have what in it. 

HSV: This has kind of been a dream of yours for years, right? 

JC: Estelle came up with this idea back in 2019. 

HSV: Yay Estelle! 

JC: And in 2020, February is when we registered the domain name “counterculturemuseum.org“. And then the pandemic hit a month later, so it’s been sitting for years waiting for the pandemic, waiting for us to get some financing in place, and then especially waiting for the perfect location. We looked on Haight Street three or four times in the last year and a half and nothing was available at the moment that we thought would be efficient for what we wanted to do. And one day we got really lucky and this space just happened to become available just as I drove by one day. I called the real estate agent instantly, saw it an hour later, Estelle saw it the next day and we put an offer in soon after that. So we’re really jazzed because I mean you can’t location than the intersection of Haight and Ashbury!

HSV: No, it’s beautiful. Talk about kismet, karma — whatever you wanna call it. That’s beautiful. 

JC: It’s really synchronistic for sure!

HSV: Yeah!

JC: So again, basically, the civil rights era bringing you into this direction. This case will probably be split in half so you see some stuff on this side, and then that will guide you into this area (gesturing towards back room). And then we have a special exhibition room as well as — this will probably be the women’s rights, feminism section because it will be right out of the civil rights into women’s rights. 

And then we’ll have rotating exhibitions in these three walls in the back. The very first one we expect to have will be the San Francisco Oracle. Take a look at these, these are gorgeous. We have 8 of the original 12 Oracles that are beautiful! This is only four of them. We just put them us along with this Stanley Mouse piece in the center, just to show what we can do, and what we expect to do. 

This is a magnificent one of the Houseboat Summit. The Oracle was responsible for the Human Be-In, the same people were involved. 

HSV: Allen Cohen, thank you.

JC: Exactly. Right, Michael Bowen, a lot of people. And we’re in touch with a lot of the folks that were part of it. Travis was part of it. So we’re gonna be focused on that. These pieces will probably be redisplayed over on the big wall because we’ve got more to tell on that era. 

HSV: (Panning to display) And this, what’s going on down here? 

JC: Well this is just something we set up in an hour to see how we may want these things to work out, and using some color schemes and just throwing a few items in. We’ve got a tremendous amount of stuff. You see all the Grateful Dead stuff just sitting there waiting to go. We’ve got a lot of interesting things. 

HSV: Let me ask you this: Ah here’s my dear friend Dennis McNally here .. I just interviewed him for the Counterculture Edition of the Haight Street Voice of which you guys are the cover story! Are you going to be having book signings and those types of events here?

JC: Yeah. He’s got his book coming out in May. 

HSV: And Dr. Dave’s book, “Healthcare is a Right Not a Privilege”. 

JC: Correct. 

HSV: So you’re going to have book signings and that type of thing here? 

JC: Yes. Obviously we’re not in a position to putting any dates in stone at the moment because we’ve got a date that’s kind of nebulous as to what day exactly we’ll be opening. But we’ve got people lined up and people that want to do it, and there’s a timeliness to it. And we have a lot of connections. I was just trading emails with Dennis this morning. He’s a good friend. He obviously did the biography on Jack Kerouac, and he was the guy who introduced the Dead to Kerouac’s work. 

HSV: Didn’t Jerry come up to him and say “Hey, I love your book on Beatniks” or something? 

JC: That’s the story I heard. I’ve never asked Dennis that directly but it’s certainly the story that I’m aware of. 

HSV: Everything’s connected, huh!?

JC: Yes!

So this is a collection that a friend sent to me. I don’t know if you’re familiar with this, it’s called “The Golden Road”?

HSV: Yes of course! It’s Blair and Regan! I know them well. Blair was my boss [at Mix Magazine].

JC: A friend of mine sent me a complete set. That’s one, two, and three or whatever, and then here’s more. So there’s a lot of stuff here! 

HSV: Yes, Blair and Regan! 

We’ll have to get some copies of Haight Street Voice in here! (Laughter)

JC: Yes, in fact yes, especially if you have a whole set.

HSV: Especially the one you’re the cover story for! 

JC: (pointing to machinery) This is our pride and joy. We just got a new pallet tool that allows us to move these cases around which is pretty cool actually. Instead of having 2 or 4 guys lifting things and carrying them around, this thing just does it.

HSV: That’s awesome. I work in a warehouse and they are awesome. 

And then it will move from this (the sixties) into LBGTQ, is that right? 

JC: Yes, that very well could be here (pointing to corner). That’s the expectation, it could change. We have other ideas. This is a case we put together quickly, again, just to show what’s possible, to show the Vietnam anti-war movement, the “thou shall not kill” button and the various peace signs and the moratorium and the March on the Pentagon for peace, Daniel Ellsberg stuff. This is a great picture of William Calley, he was the guy who was prosecuted for the My Lai Massacre. This is a media mark-up, they had the photograph and they said let’s crop it here and use that tight shot of just his face for that newspaper article. 

HSV: Wow. 

JC: This is a letter home where a young man is telling his parents, “We burned every hut. I didn’t dream I’d ever be doing anything like this but we were ordered to do it and I had to do it.” Ferlinghetti, “Where is Vietnam?” I mean, it’s a rich topic and it’s still obviously right on point for today. 

HSV: Peggy Caserta in my interview with her, she said — in fact I was quoted in the Wall Street Journal, I’m very proud of that … SHE was quoted in my interview with her where she said, “You know, the one thing I can say is that the hippies, we really did stop the Vietnam War.” 

JC: I totally concur. 

HSV: And I love that, I love that. Now that’s a beautiful tie-in for young kids realizing that. 

JC: It is! We actually wrote an article about that Gary Snyder helped end the Vietnam War because he actually had a meeting with Daniel Ellsberg and he convinced him at a certain point  that this war is not moral. It took time, but you know … He was a big peace advocate. And he obviously spans the Beat Generation and the Hippie Era. So we’ve got a lot of stories to tell.

We’ve told a lot of them in the past and now it’s in the way of how do you take it from a blog entry and put it on the wall or put it inside a case? It’s the same story it’s just a different way of telling it. 

HSV: Yes. Let me ask you this cuz I’m asking everybody — I’ve asked people on the street. I think I sent you the video of a young kid, and 18 year old. Let me ask you these 2 questions: 

What does counterculture mean to you in today’s world? And what is the task of counterculture  moving forward? 

JC: Well, in my opinion it’s the artists and their free spirits and the young who push society forward. It’s not the uptight folks sitting behind a desk making computer programs and not the things the REALLY drive the culture — it’s the people who put their own passion and perspective into things to show what can be, and typically it’s been the young. Every generation wants to do something different than its parents did. And in the sense of the counterculture, people try out different things, and sometimes thing stick.

In the case of the Hippies, the Hippies were a generation younger than the Beat generation. The Beat generation was a counterculture that got world famous because of electronic media, and so that’s why their message went around the world. And being a generation younger, the same thing happened with the Hippies but what happened with the Hippies is that there were so damn many of them! The Beats looked around and said one day, you know, “There’s more of us than we were expecting.” The Hippies woke up and realized, ‘We have numbers that are huge” because of the Baby Boom. The Baby Boom was 1946 to 1961, ’63 — however you measure it — and there were 10,000 elementary schools built in the United States just to educate the kids after World War II. 

The culture changed because of World War II, the middle class grew after World War II and these young people were relatively comfortable and they were going to college and they had different options than their parents did. Many of our fathers were IN World War II. And all of a sudden the kids were getting drafted to go away to Vietnam, and it was like, “This is not our father’s war. This is a different type of war.” 

In the minds of most Americans, the U.S. was attacked by Japan so we had to join in in that sense. But in Vietnam, it was the domino theory: If we don’t stop ‘em here — or in Asia — we’re gonna have to fight them in the streets of San Diego and San Francisco when they try to invade the United States. So it was a different mindset. 

For me, counterculture is basically people who think that they can have a sense of their own lives, what’s important to them, live in a more free way and dig into what they wanna dig into whatever it may be. It’s kind of like the spirit of the Beats. We don’t care who you are, what you look like and what you’re into as long as you’re not hurting anybody else — come join our party. And so as a result of that you’ve got reign. Again, you’ve gotta stay within bounds, you don’t wanna manipulate other people or hurt other people or take advantage of or exploit other people. 

That’s why the Hippies were so embracing. That’s the whole idea behind Woodstock. 400,000, 500,000 young people show up and there’s no violence, there’s no trouble, there’s people getting high or doing whatever they’re doing, but nobody got uptight about it. And even in the rainstorm it was just a good weekend for most people. And the legacy lives on. And then you can measure how and when did that era end and why did it end and there’s a whole lot of people that have different positions on it.

HSV: Some say Altamont because of the violence.

JC: Some say Altamont. A lot of people tell us it was the Manson killings which happened around the same time. 

HSV: A lot of weird stuff started happening: Jim Jones, Moscone — are you going to — I’m sure you’re gonna cover Moscone and Harvey Milk and all of that?

JC: Yes. We’re glad to be able to present all these various stories. 

HSV: And then what is the task [of counterculture] moving forward? I think you’re kind of leaving this with the LBGTQ into where do we go from here kind of thing? 

JC: No, no, no — we’re not finished yet! We gotta come outta this room first! (Laughter) Cuz then we start talking about activism and what can you do to change the world? 

From that Vietnam case that’s just up for show, the Vietnam Era will probably be out here somewhere. And then over here we expect to have a wall of the Grateful Dead and the rest of Rock and Roll! So we’ll have all the San Francisco Sound represented.

HSV: Big Brother, Janis, all of that … 

JC: Absolutely. We’re gonna talk also about the L.A. scene and the British Invasion and what was happening with other mediums of rock and roll and how that changed the course of America and the world, I mean Bob Dylan, Dylan goes electric is a big story in the ‘60s. 

[walking to end] And then we expect to end it up with how activism can lead to political change, societal change, and I think the big message for especially young people today is how do we save the planet? We still have a chance to do it. And the Beats and the Hippies were all involved in the environmental movement. Allen Ginsberg spoke at the first Earth Day. Again, Gary Snyder involved, and so many people involved of the Hippie era, putting themselves on train tracks trying to stop the plutonium going through the various cities and towns of the USA with nuclear waste, etc. And how do we come back from this? 

And that’s the task of the new young generation: How do we recover? And so for that, we try to send people out the door knowing that there’s still time to change the world. 

HSV: Connecting the 18-year-old I interviewed in the middle of nowhere, he said you gotta connect with people, you gotta talk to each other. 

RC: You gotta meet people where they are, exactly. 

HSV: And get together. Not just be online, alone or isolated. 

RC: You’ve got to do what you can from where you’re at. Kind of like that Gary Snyder quote, you do what you can with where you’re at. You can’t take on everything. You can’t be involved in every single issue but if you can if you can pick one or two or three issues that are important to you, you work on that, whatever that is, whatever that issue might be for you. Whether it’s people that are hungry or whether it’s an immoral war or some kind of action taking place in the world — whatever it is, you find your place where you want to put your energy and you try to make things better. 

HSV: That’s what Wavy Gravy told me when I interviewed him last week is, “Put your good where it will do the most.” 

RC: Right. And for us, we’ve had a museum for 20 years, we know how to tell a story. We’ve talked about a lot of things we could be doing with the rest of our lives, but for us this is important because it empowers people. It let’s people realize they’re not alone, and you can learn from what happened in the past, and you can make choices for the future. And that’s why we’re doin’ it. 

HSV: Well thank you Jerry and Estelle — and Kira! (Laughter)

I know a lot of people cuz I’ve lived here a million years but a lot of people are excited about this sense that hopefully this is going to be a place — it’s gonna feel like a place you can sort of hang out and learn instead of just retail, instead of just a bar, instead of just a restaurant — you can come, you can learn, you can read a book … 

JC: Right. 

HSV: It’s a place to land, and people are really excited about that. 

JC: Yeah! We expect to be able to be involved with a lot of constituents. Obviously the people in the neighborhood have a special place. People who are visiting from overseas or other parts of the country, you know, they might just be here for a day or a weekend or whatever and they’re gonna wanna tour the museum and see all the exhibits and spend maybe a few hours here. It’s the locals that’ll probably come for the book signings and the other events that we’ll be hosting. And so we’re gonna try to cater to a lot of different levels — just like we’ve done at the Beat Museum.

HSV: Yes!

JC: Again, meeting people where they are, and being open to what people want. We don’t claim to have all the answers for anything, and we’re very much open to ideas. And if somebody thinks we’re going in the wrong direction — that’s happened to us at The Beat Museum. “Hey that’s the legend and that’s the lure about that story, but what really happened is this, and it’s different than what most people think.” And then when you realize, “Oh my gosh this guy’s telling us something we never knew, and you’re right. Somebody quoted something incorrectly in a biography 30 years and more information has come to light since then.” And all of a sudden that myth or that legend, you find out really isn’t the truth.

HSV: Right. A lot of people here say that Jimi Hendrix lived in that Red House and a lot of other people say, “No, that’s not true.” 

JC: Exactly. 

HSV: And also I think they got Peggy (Caserta) and Janis (Joplin) houses wrong over here.

JC: Oh really!?

HSV: So who knows really, Peggy’s passed now. 

JC: There might be documentation. (Estelle walks into frame)

HSV: Hey Estelle! You want to add to anything? 

Estelle Cimino: I’m a little late to the party here! (Laughter) 

HSV: Well, we’re really excited. Let me ask you: What does counterculture mean to you? And what is the task of counterculture moving forward? 

EC: I really believe counterculture is going against the grain of probably what is considered “normal.” It’s people living their truth, it’s people being authentic to who they are and what they want to happen in their lives and the lives of others in the world. It isn’t always what the government tells us or what others tell us. 

HSV: Especially now. 

EC: Or even what parents tell us as we’re growing up, that’s hard. When I was a kid — and I know this has been quoted a lot — but when I was a kid I remember, I was way too young to be part of Hippies and everything else but I saw all the Hippies. I admired the fact that they seemed so free and they could do what they wanted. It was just so appealing, and I told my parents, “One day when I grow up I wanna be a Hippie!” And they said, “No you don’t!” 

I really didn’t want to be a Hippie but I wanted to live that lifestyle, be that person who could live free without somebody telling them what to do all the time and how to do it. 

I know I believe we all should live our authentic selves. Of course there’s some things, you know, don’t kill one another, don’t harm one another — I believe in those things. But beyond that, it’s what is your truth and try to move towards that truth. I’m a career counselor and I have a Master’s Degree in career counseling and I have counseled so many people — mostly made career professionals but lots of young people that are in college or trying to figure out their lives. They get so caught up in the “shoulds” of life and I say, “Don’t should on yourself!” 

HSV: (laughing) That’s good! 

EC: It’s true! We still do it as adults, we “should” ourselves! We live under unrealistic expectations. And most of those expectations we don’t have to live up to. A lot of them are still caught up in still in the parental buttons! We all have buttons, even when we’re older. It’s like, What do you wanna do? What is in your heart? What is in your spirit? I like to bring that out in people. Well, okay! So what can you do with that? Can you even have a career doing that? How can you realize that? And if it’s not a career, outside a real career how can you realize that? I think that’s for all of us: how can we realize that? 

Obviously being a woman, I identify as a woman, women’s rights and feminism is a big exhibit for me. I know I talk about this a lot, I don’t know if I told you but … 

HSV: We’re in a different space now. This is good. 

EC: When the law passed that women could open up bank accounts in their own name, it was a big deal to me because I was always independent. My parents actually wanted me to be independent and be able to take care of my own self. But obviously there are laws, and as soon as that law passed I said, “Wow! I am going to go to the bank …” I did it all on my own, didn’t tell anybody … I marched to the bank and I opened up my own checking account! I always had a job since the time I was 15, so it was’t a lot of money but it was money and so I opened a checking account. 

I was 17 years old and the bank manager who was waiting on me, he said, “You know, you’re a little too young to open your bank account.” I said, “But please! This law just passed! I wanna do this, it’s important to me.” He said, “Okay, we’re gonna do it.” And I got my first bank account in my own name at 17 and never stopped there! It just meant something to me to be able to have rights. 

Unfortunately, we see rights being taken away from people. 

HSV: Right now, in this very moment. I just kind of wanted to tie that into this. 

EC: Of course! 

HSV: Of where we are in America right now and the beautifulness of you guys opening this museum. Alot of the people who were around in the ‘60s are saying this is the weirdest they’ve ever seen it. 

JC: We’re a history museum and we don’t shy away from the truth, you know? History teaches you. 

HSV: And this is going to inspire people to remember.

JC: We hope so! That’s what we hope happens is that people remember what happened in the ‘60s and reclaim power to make positive change for themselves, for our society and for the world. 

EC: And that’s really that we want to empower people — inspire and empower. And I think that, like Jerry just said, they’ve got to claim their own power. My personal belief is that we don’t want to — and again this is my believe — we don’t want to fight against things, we want to fight FOR what we want. When you have wars against anything it doesn’t work. It never works. If it’s against drugs or whatever, it doesn’t work.

So what we want, let’s fight for what we want, let’s take action for what we want. That’s really what we’re about: Showing how the past can inspire today and the future. And the stories of the past are wonderful stories, so we’re excited to tell those stories. 

HSV: I have a friend who’s in the LBGTQ world and he’s doing a walking tour of the gay history in the Haight. There were a lot of gay bars — and there still are — but his thing is: “Joy is resistance.” 

EC: Oh I love that! That’s beautiful.

JC: That’s a good point. 

HSV: Find your joy, and that’s resisting. 

BOTH: Yes! 

HSV: Instead of being angry and arguing all the time.

JC: That’s a good point. That’s one of the things we talk about a lot. We try to laugh. 

HSV: I just got goosebumps! 

JC: And that’s why we got the dog recently, seriously, because she brings so much joy to our lives. We have to care for her, love her, take care of her needs, we do it every day and we really enjoy it. 

HSV: What do you want to say — since you will be the cover story — what do you want to the Haight community in this edition of Haight Street Voice, the Counterculture Edition that you’ve inspired! 

JC: Good! Well, we’re thrilled to be here, number one. And we really have felt an extremely warm welcome by people in the community — from other merchants, people who live on the street, people who literally live on the street, people who live in the neighborhood. We just want to be a part of YOUR community because for us, we didn’t live here in the ‘60s. We have never lived here and yet we understand, we think, what the story is. And we invite you and encourage you to tell us your story, tell us what we might be missing, what’s the flavor of this, what’s the twist to that story — because we want to tell a good, powerful, unique story that went around the world, that literally started at this intersection (pointing out the window). 

EC: Exactly! And we could still do the same thing, you know, today. We can make change! 

HSV: I keep saying “Spring” … I know you don’t want to name any months. 

JC: We’re thinking May. 

EC: Late April or May. 

HSV: Okay! We won’t hold you to it but we’re hoping! 

EC: Every day there’s something new, either something we achieved or an issue to resolve. 

HSV: Thank you Estelle and Jerry — and Kira, yay! (Laughter) 

Come on down, kids! Peace! 

THE BEAT MUSEUM, DECEMBER 2024 [ViDEO + FULL TRANSCRIPT]

HSV: Hey guys! Haight Street Voice here and I am the Beat Museum right now with Jerry Cimino, Chimino — owner and fabulousness who is opening the Counterculture Museum in 2025. Hi!

JC: Hi! How are you! 

HSV: I’m good! How are you? 

JC: (peace sign fingers). 

HSV: V.Vale! V for Vale! (Laughter) 

JC: There’s a funny story about my last name. I grew up in Baltimore and everybody in Baltimore pronounced my name as “SimEEino”. My father grew up with “SIMino”. And he would take a great umbrage if anyone pronounced it a different way. But when I finally got outta Baltimore and started seeing the world a little bit I realized most people pronounced my last name as SimEEno. And then when I moved to an Italian place in Monterey California where there are a lot of Italian fisherman, everybody said, “You’re Jerry CHimino. Why aren’t you pronouncing your name right?” So one day I was returning some calls, there’s a friend sitting next to me and I got 3 voicemails:

“Hey Joe, it’s Jerry SIMino. I got your message, I’ll call ya later.” 

“Hey Paul, it’s Jerry SimEEno. I’ll talk to you soon.”

“Hey Billy, it’s Jerry CHimino” — like what you’re saying. 

And this person looks at me and says, “Do you realize — are you schizophrenic or what? I mean you just pronounced your last name 3 different ways in a minute!” And I said, “Well, I knew this guy when I was a kid in Baltimore. I knew this guy when I worked for IBM in the big city. And then I met this person and they knew me in a Sicilian little town. So why make anybody wrong?” That was my attitude. So I answer to all of ‘em. 

HSV: Wow! Nice story Jerry! Kind of explains who you are. 

So we don’t have to go into the history of this joint as much — I mean we do but we don’t. 

JC: I can make it fast if you want. 

HSV: I know you started (zoom in on a photo of the Further bus) This is the best. The kooky Neal Cassady. 

So I know that you started in Monterey, so maybe we start there? 

(Jerry points and walks forward and I follow)

HSV: You know the deal! Take me away! 

JC: (Walking to entrance of the tour): 

The Beat Museum grew out of my wife’s coffeehouse bookshop, which was located in Monterey, California. We had that for a number of years but after it started, Starbucks moved in across the street and a big Borders Bookstore opened, and all these other big competitors opened and we just could’t keep it together cuz there were like 5 coffee shops and a couple of bookstores all within walking distance. So we closed it after 5 years. 

And one day, my wife later went to become a career counselor and she did really well at it. She actually still does it. And she opened up an office in downtown Monterey. It was a fairly big space and it had two different separate entrances. 

So one day I was ready to leave corporate America and I said, “You know, why don’t I take my Beat collection out of the garage, we’ll stick it in this extra room you’ve got down there, we’ll call it a museum and see if anybody shows up?” And she said, “That’s a good idea. Why don’t you try it…” So we did. We got some press in our local paper and the day we opened a guy walked in the door and handed us this Jack Kerouac / Steve Allen “Poetry for the Beat Generation” It’s on the Fantasy label that came out of Berkeley. I recognized it and I knew, “This is probably worth $300.” 

HSV: Saul Zantz — wasn’t it? Fantasy? 

JC: I don’t know … 

HSV: No worries, sorry about that! Go ahead … 

JC: So anyway, I said, “I know this is worth about $300 and I don’t have the money to pay you for that. I just opened yesterday!’ And the guy says, “I’m not lookin for money. You need to put it on the wall. This is important. This is history. You gotta tell the young people what the history was of their lives!” So I accepted it and that was the very first thing that we ever had donated.

We built this museum on various things that had been donated. Ninety, ninety-five percent of the stuff you’re gonna be filming right here right now was donated by somebody. Sometimes things just show up in the mail, unannounced, unexpected.

HSV: Wow. 

JC: So we talk about the influences of the Beat generation, who the precursors were. They were very well read. Jack Kerouac, Allen Ginsberg, William Burroughs: this was what was on their bookshelves: They read Whitman, they read Proust, they read Thomas Wolfe and Patchen and William Carlos Williams. And the classics: Theroux and Shakespeare and everybody else. 

HSV: Camus? 

JC: Yeah, they were big into the French. 

So then, we talk about how jazz was the happening thing. In the 1940s, 1950s, jazz was — if you were hip, you’d go to a jazz club. This was pre television. We talk to young people, we have classes in a lot and I think we’re going to get a lot of classes in the Counterculture Museum too. 

HSV: Yay! 

JC: I know! 

HSV: We’ll get to the Counterculture Museum in a sec, kids! (Laughter) 

JC: Sorry … 

HSV: No, we’re great! Keep going! Take your time. This is so groovy. 

JC: So David Amram was a friend of Jack Kerouac’s, and that’ s him with Kerouac in this photo. I saw David speak many times. He played with world-class musicians. He played with Willie Nelson, he played with Leonard Bernstein … 

HSV: What instrument? 

JC: Oh god he played everything! He plays the flute, the piano …

HSV: He’s still around?

JC: He’s 93 years old! 

HSV: Holy moly!

JC: I just spoke to him a week ago. 

HSV: Bless his heart! 

JC: He’s still working, he’s still traveling. And he always gives a nod to Kerouac. He always tells the story about, you know, young people — you gotta find what sets your passion afire!  

HSV: Say that again cuz that parallels what V.Vale was just telling me. Young people … 

JC: Find something that you love and find a way to do it. And basically he says, “Look, you’re 20 years old, you’re right outta high school or you’re in college, and your mom wants you to be a doctor and your dad wants you to be a lawyer and you wanna be an artist or painter or maybe an architect. You might wanna be anything else, but you don’t want to disappoint your parents cuz they want something different. They want you to be safe.” And he goes, “We all have people in our lives who love us so much they don’t want us to be hurt and they encourage us not to take risks.” His point was, “If that’s happening to you, you gotta love those people — especially if they’re your family, you gotta love ‘em, you gotta bless ‘em. But hang out with the people who support your dreams. You gotta find something that you love.”

And I can tell you this from personal experience: when you do what you love, you’re not working, you know? You’re digging it actually! 

HSV: Peggy Caserta who sadly just left the planet but she’s up with Janis now … she wrote in her book I Ran Into Some Trouble when she signed it to me, it says, “Always have a dream.” And she added to that, she said to me, “Always have a dream. And if you don’t have one, go find one!” 

JC: Yeah, exactly. And if it doesn’t work out, go find another one! Seriously. There’s nothing that says you can’t change your dream.

HSV: And have fun maybe!

JC: Exactly. You gotta have fun while you’re doing it. 

Anyways … Jazz was an important part of the Beat Movement. And it’s the spontaneity of jazz that caused Kerouac to change his writing style. If you think about, you know, you’ve got a trio: one guy’s playing a horn, somebody’s playing a keyboard, and somebody’s playing a drumset. And all of a sudden somebody takes a solo and the horn guy passes it to the guy on the drums and he passes it to the keyboard and they mix it up and all of a sudden they complete, and they’re done. And it’s probably never played the same way twice. And that’s the spontaneity of jazz that Jack based his writing on. 

HSV: I was gonna say, it’s like a good conversation. Bouncing around and riffing …

JC: And he would often listen to jazz when he as writing.

Now over there on the other side of the car when we get there, we have a painting that looks just like a Jackson Pollack. I’ve had many people ask me, “is that a real Jackson Pollack?” And obviously I always say, “The last Jackson Pollack sold for $30 million, so you can have this one for $100,000!” (Laughs) 

HSV: My eye just kind of wandered over here (pan to t-shirt on display) to Ramblin Jack Elliott! He’s a dear friend of mine! Tell me about this. 

JC: Well, Jack’s been here a few times … 

HSV: Jack, we love you!

JC: Jack’s unique in a lot of ways cuz he knew Kerouac in New York City, and in fact when Kerouac wrote On the Road, Jack Elliott was the guy that Kerouac read it to in the manuscript form. And it took a day to do it. And then of course, time comes along and in the ‘70s he’s playing with Dylan out on the Rolling Thunder tour. This was Allen Ginsberg’s shirt that he got from that tour, cuz he was there as well. 

This was a typewriter that belonged to Allen. One of the things I tell young people a lot is, “Just like you’ve already had four computers in your life and your 16 years old, these guys had many typewriters.” This would’ve been a ‘60s portable model. 

HSV: Cool. 

JC: This is about the Howl trial. Jake Erlich wrote this book, Howl of the Censor. He’s the lawyer who won the Howl trial to keep Ferlinghetti out of jail. Ferlinghetti could’ve gone to jail for publishing Howl, and he was acquitted of course. That happened literally just down the street where the Hilton is right now in North Beach Chinatown. 

(pointing to different display): And then we get into World War II. And I love to tell the kids this: WWII is the biggest thing to happen in the 20th Century bar none. There’s nothing that compares. Nineteen sixty-eight is probably a close second, but WWII was gargantuan. And what we did here, we talk about how the Beats were involved in WWII. Lawrence Ferlinghetti was a commander on a sub chaser.

HSV: Holy shit. 

JC: I know! And he was at D-Day in 1944 when we stormed the beaches of France and he was on a ship literally at Normandy. And then he gets transferred to the Pacific and a year later he’s walking into Nagasaki a month after we dropped the bomb. Nothing but devastation of course, and he was shocked: he finds this intact teacup sitting on the ground in Nagasaki and as he picks it up to look at it he realizes there’s a finger — the top end of a finger, fused to this teacup The person was standing there drinking their morning tea when the bomb went off and evaporated the person and just left the teacup on the ground with his finger protected by the cup which is why that was the only thing that survived. 

(pointing to an image) Kerouac … 

HSV: I was gonna say, that’s Kerouac. 

JC: Jack Kerouac …

HSV: He’s a baby!

JC: Yeah, that’s a great picture. … and Dustin Krodow. And his best friend, Sammy Sampas, the one on the right, he was killed at Anzio. They were childhood friends in Lowell Massachusetts. Sammy was a Greek kid. Jack later married his sister, years later. But Sammy was killed in Anzio in 1944. So there was great loss. And here’s another huge loss: That ship is the SS Dorchester. Jack was a Merchant Marine and he would run war material between the United States and Great Britain. And on this ship he would help deliver supplies for the war effort before the US got into the war. And one day his coach at Columbia called him back to play football and he winds up not making that particular trip, and the ship was sunk at sea and 675 guys died in that. So it was a huge — Brandon wrote this great piece called “The Profundity of Loss” and that’s what that was about: all the loss of the war. 

We’ll get back to that in a minute. Let me introduce my wife Estelle! 

HSV: Hi Estelle! 

Estelle Cimino: Hi there! 

HSV: Yay. Haight Street Voice, I’m Linda Kelly. 

EC: Nice to meet you, Linda. 

HSV: We’re not live, we’re just doing a walkthrough of the lead to the counterculture, and how excited we are that you’re going to be [in the Haight] in the Spring!

EC: Thank you!

HSV: I’m so excited! 

EC: Well I’m glad — thank you so much!  

HSV: It’s a block from my house, so … yay! 

JC: You live that close? 

HSV: I’m at Page and Masonic, so it’s 2 blocks, all said and done. And I used to live in that building. My apartment was 612 Ashbury. 

JC: Oh really!?

HSV: Just above that corner. In ’81 and went to SF State. Anyway, it’s not about me, it’s about this place and how this links — in fact, V.Vale, I just finished interviewing him around the corner.

EC: Oh yes, he’s a nice guy! 

HSV: We were just talking about how it went from the Bohemians to the Beats to the Punks to the LBGTQ and where we are now. So this is — we’re sort of launching from here, and how you’re going to get to the Counterculture Museum is kind of the arc of that. 

JC: Yeah. And Vale obviously is a fellow traveler. He and I have talked about this a lot over the years. He gave one of the greatest quotes that I had ever heard about us: He said, “The system, the people in power, don’t want the counterculture to be preserved. In fact, it’s the last thing they want to be preserved. They want the status quo. They don’t want things to change.” And he says, “It’s The Beat Museum that preserves the counterculture.” He actually said that!

HSV: Yay! 

JC: Five or ten years ago he said that! We actually put that on the website years ago (https://www.kerouac.com/interview-with-v-vale/)

So I know that Estelle is going to be going out soon, right? 

EC: Yes, very shortly. 

JC: Do you want to talk to her a little bit? 

HSV: I mean, I’m just, we’re very organic here! If there’s anything that you’d like to say about your …

JC: You’re mostly going to use this for the transcript to write the piece, right? 

HSV: Exactly. But also I might use some pieces of it, I might roll the whole thing. I always kind of just roll with it cuz it’s better than only do audio cuz then I have some video.

What are your hopes and dreams with the Counterculture Museum? And also, what would you like to say to the Haight community, cuz this goes out to a lot of people that love the Haight Ashbury and what it represents, the light that lit the ‘60s. 

EC: Well, first of all, I think that, you know, our goal is to be very community oriented. That’s what we’ve been here at The Beat Museum. We embrace the community. We’re not there to change the community, we’re there to be a part of the community. One of the things that I believe in is uplifting others. Obviously we want to do really well, but we also want to uplift all the other businesses and people in the community. Hopefully we’ll be able to do that! Maybe bring an extra spark to the neighborhood that brings more tourists and shoppers and interest so that not only do we do well, everyone else does. 

So that’s what we’re all about. We’ve always done that and will continue to do that over in the Haight Ashbury neighborhood. We really want to help people to better understand what these countercultures are and how much they’ve had impact on society throughout the years and making what we thought was lasting change, making change that’s really needed.  

Jerry can tell you all about the Beats, but think about Civil Rights and Women’s Rights and LBGTQ+ and Environmentalism — a lot of this happening way back. I mean they really started way back before the 1950s but the eras we’re focusing on are the ‘50s, ’60s, and ‘70s, primarily right in that little sweet spot. 

So much happened. I remember how the changes in the laws affected me personally. I’ve lived through that, and maybe you have and maybe Jerry has. I personally remember when women were given the right to open up their own bank account. And women were given the right to open up credit cards in their own name. One of my stories — obviously it will tell your age, my age not your age! — is that when the law changed and women could open up bank accounts and credit cards in their own name, I marched to my local bank. I was 17-years-old at that time, and obviously 18 was legal or adult age, and I walked in and I said, “I want to open up my own checking account.” And the manager was waiting on me and he said, “Well, you’re not quite old enough.” And I said, “The law just changed. You can make an exception. I will be 18 in three months, so please do it for me.” He knew it was important to me to be able to do that, and he opened it up! I didn’t tell my parents! I just did it. And probably a year or two later they discovered I had my own checking account and was paying my own bills and stuff like that. I had a job when I was 15. 

HSV: What state were you in? 

EC: Maryland. That’s where Jerry and I were born and raised. 

So that really had meaning to me. 

HSV: And on the opposite end of that spectrum is the fact that women’s rights, our bodies, our rights are being taken away. We’ll see what’s going to happen. Pray that we’ll get them back again. 

EC: Right. 

HSV: The importance of the Counterculture Museum for kids that are seeing this, like, “Wow, it’s all going backwards.” To get a perspective. 

BOTH: Exactly! 

EC: And I think it’s good for them to know what it was, how it changed for the, what I believe, for the positive, and now it’s going backwards as you just described. It’s not up to me and my generation to go do the fighting anymore. But I want to help others, younger generations, if you want change, you’ve gotta go out there and do something about it. You don’t have to, you know, take a gun and shoot people — obviously that’s not what I’m promoting. But get in the streets and protest. Or figure out good ways of making things happen. 

HSV: And also connect with your friends and family and talk about things.

EC: Exactly. 

HSV: Communicate. That’s my big thing: talk about stuff.

EC: Communication is key to everything. 

HSV: Not on your texting. I’m talking about in person talking to each other.

EC: Exactly. Sitting in a room together. Even if you’re protesting in a march, people are there in person and you get a better connection. You listen to people doing speeches or whatever, and then you feel like you’re really connected to the cause and you’re connected to people who are like-minded and I just think it’s wonderful.

HSV: Thank you! Let me ask you: I was talking to V.Vale about this: I feel like what we’re missing is a place for people to — in the Haight cuz I’ve lived there over 40 years with 7 in New York when I said screw the hippie thing and moved to New York — but anyway: We don’t really have a place to hang out and talk about stuff. We don’t have a place to sit and talk. Is the Counterculture Museum going to be a place where you can sit on the couch and have a conversation? Is it much like this (the Beat Museum)?

JC: Yes, we have events here, and we expect to do the same thing at the Counterculture Museum. 

HSV: Say I’m a tourist from out of town and I come in and I see a couch and there’s a book, I can sit down and read a book for a little bit, yes? 

JC: Sure. We’re going to have a gift shop, book shop. You never know how things change once you open something up, too, cuz where’s the demand? What do people want? 

HSV: Right. 

JC: But we’re embracing — we want people to walk in the door, we expect to have a lot of events. We’re there to give the people what they want as much as we can. 

Can I interject for a second while we still have Estelle?

HSV: Of course! 

JC: She’s the one that came up with this idea for the Counterculture Museum. 

HSV: Bless you!

EC: Yay! 

JC: The Beat Museum has been my passion. 

EC: I like it but it’s more him. 

JC: Five years ago she said, “You know, Jer, what do people really need in the world right now?  They need something to believe in, they need to understand where things came from and how it affects their lives today? The Counterculture Museum is not just history, it’s about the present, and how does that change shift and why? And if don’t know the past, and the mistakes of the past, you’re bound to repeat ‘em. You know that, that’s an old adage. 

And so our intent is to educate, especially school groups — high school groups, college school groups, and also bring people together and allow them to participate and figure out what’s right for them. 

EC: It’s a no judgement zone essentially because we believe, and Brandon who is with us … 

HSV: Hey Brandon!

EC: Yes, Brandon. He’s a wonderful employee. He’s been with us a long time. It’s really about authenticity. What is your truth? And it’s about living your truth. And I think the Haight Ashbury is a neighborhood that represents living to your truth and being authentic as much as possible. 

That’s what we want to promote, is that you don’t have to be someone that someone tells you to be. I know parents do that a lot and I know they mean well, but sometimes being an engineer is just not the right fit for someone, and they have to true to their own passions. 

I come actually from a background of being a career counselor, a career coach, so I help young people and older people and people of all ages, shapes and sizes to figure out: what are their skills, what are their passions, what are their interests — and how can you get out there in the world of work and doing what fits for you but also fits with what needs are out there. 

I think in the Counterculture Museum we’re going to be able to do that and show that a lot of people who did very important things were living their passion and they were being true to themselves. Yeah, sometimes they ended up in jail for what they believed in, but they also — a lot of them also knew that was going to happen.  

HSV: I’m thinking of Bob Weir of the Grateful Dead came as a kid … 

EC: Exactly! 

HSV: Peggy Caserta from New Orleans had Mnasidika, like, “Hey, I’ll open a clothing shop on Haight!” Always having a dream, that kind of thing. 

JC: I mentioned David Amran earlier. One of his great lines is, “Don’t confuse what you do to make a living and paying your bills with who you really are.” You may be an artist or a painter or a musician or a sculptor or a concert pianist or whatever but, you know, maybe you bartend to pay the bills. Maybe you are a waiter in order to make some money to pay the rent. And that’s a part of authenticity, you know? That’s not selling out. That’s finding a way to do more than one thing at once. 

EC: It’s called “a portfolio career” when you do more than one thing to earn an income.

HSV: Oh, I like that! (Into mic): Did you hear that, People? “Portfolio career.” Thank you, Estelle! 

EC: And for some of clients, that’s what they do. They might have a full-time job being an engineer or whatever it is that they do, or it’s bagging groceries at the grocery store, but on the side they’re writing poetry or they’re — whatever it is, they’re painting. Because that’s what has meaning to them and maybe one day they can switch and be an artist full time and be an engineer part-time or whatever it might be. Some people have 3 things that they do. I know I’ve always run around with 2 or 3 myself, so I know it works! It can be kind of hectic sometimes but it does work. 

HSV: I always get a little upset when people say that my magazine is a hobby. I say, no, this is the thing that I do from my heart. 

BOTH: Yeah! 

HSV: I studied with Ben Fong-Torres and, you know I have another side gig but that’s okay, I’m cool with that because I know at my side gig I get to go back to my magazine. 

JC: Right. It keeps it together. 

HSV: It’s not my hobby, it’s the thing that’s connected to my heart. 

JC: Yes, you’re passion. 

HSV: So I really appreciate that. 

JC: Yeah, it’s a good one. (To Estelle) You probably gotta go, yeah?

EC: Yes. I’m gonna take off.

HSV: Thank you, and we’ll see you in the Haight! 

EC: Yes, thank you! 

HSV: Alright Estelle, thank you so much! 

JC: You gonna come down with Kyra?? or you gonna get her from upstairs? 

EC: I don’t know, we’ll see. Where’s the car? 

JC: Trieste.

EC: I might just go out — unless you want Linda to meet her?

JC: Have you met our dog? 

HSV: No! 

JC: Greatest dog in America. 

HSV: Alright! Bring her down! Alright, we get to meet a dog, Ladies and Gentlemen! (Laughter) We’re dog-friendly in our interviews. 

JC: As she’s getting our current family (points to old photos in display cabinet) this is my family. 

HSV: Awww.

JC: This is my Dad in Berlin, 1944-1945. 

HSV: Name?

JC: Jack Cimino. Not CiMEEno! Jack CIMino. He was drafted in 1944 and he was in occupied Berlin in 1945. He’s 18 years old! You know what they did with these young troops? They had them play baseball, soccer, or football every day to keep them occupied. They’re 18 years old with guns! They played at Olympic Stadium, the same stadium that Jesse Owens won the medal. That’s my Mom. 

HSV: Aww, look at them! 

JC: He met my Mother, her name was Lorraine — they both passed — my Dad met my Mother on the 4th of July, 1946, not long after he got back to the U.S. after serving overseas. And then my brother was born a few years later and I was born after him. 

We wanted to show: this is what the average American family did, they aspired to the American Dream. They wanted to get married, have a couple kids, get a house in the suburbs, 2-car garage, and that’s what people aspired to. Other people didn’t necessarily aspire it. Allen Ginsberg was gay. He never dreamed he could have a family, he didn’t dream he could get married. He died in 1997. So for him it was a different American Dream. For Kerouac, he could barely take care of himself in a lot of ways, much less a wife and children. So he had a tragic life in that sense, personally. 

But these few people are the ones that changed the course of the world because they followed an authentic path. Allen had to write his poetry and it was poetry that changed the world. Jack had to write his novels and his novels changed the world. There wouldn’t be a Haight Ashbury had it not been for Jack Kerouac and Allen Ginsberg. The Howl trial happened in 1957, Kerouac’s On the Road came out in 1957, the Russians launched Sputnik in 1957.

HSV: It’s funny cuz ’67 is kind of a number that kind of rings in the ear of everybody … 

JC: That’s the thing! There never would’ve been a 1967 had there not been a 1957 ten years prior because they were the tribal elders to the Hippies. The Beats were born in the ‘20s, the front-end of the Hippies were born in the ‘40s, ’45, ’46, ’47. That was the front end of the people.

HSV: What do you think the connection is — sorry I’m kind of jumping all around here … 

JC: That’s okay!  

HSV: … Vale and I were talking: what’s the connection between North Beach and the Haight? Geographically? Vibe-wise? All of that … 

JC: Well the vibe is similar. Obviously it’s much more tie-dye over there, everybody knows everybody, that’s the same whether your over here or over there. 

HSV: Neighborhoody.

JC: We get a lot of draw from over there. But as far as how the hippies wound up in the Haight, the story I’ve been told by a lot of old-timers in this neighborhood is, the Beats — because of City Lights Bookstore — they gathered here. They went to the bars on Grant Avenue, and to the various jazz joints here on Broadway. 

HSV: Janis Joplin played at the Grant and Green! 

JC: Yes, exactly!

And so they were here, and when then when the Russians launched Sputnik — that’s where the term “Beatnik” came about, and the same type of tourist busses we see all the time around here these days in both neighborhoods, they started driving down Grant Avenue laughing at the dirty Beatniks sitting on the streets, and rent started going up, and that meal you used to get that was a buck was now a buck and a half or whatever, and a bunch of the girls went over to the college in the Haight, and the boys followed the girls … and next thing you know, they’re little “hipsters”. They became “little hipsters”. And that became the Hippies. 

HSV: Where’s the college in the Haight — do you mean SF State? 

JC: Yes. 

HSV: Yes, that’s where I went. Go Gators! Thanks for that little interjection! 

JC: Right! So anyway, this is the war (to WWII display). 

And then we get to New York City, cuz that’s where they all met. They met at Columbia University. I love these photographs. These photographs were all donated to us by the family of Fred Madera ?? and the ones on top were from the family of Burt Glen?? 

This is Gregory Corso at a poetry reading where he almost gets in a fight with a reporter. Look at that little quad over there — that little series of photos where he’s ready to fight with the reporter. 

(Dog comes on camera)

And here comes Kyra! 

HSV: Here comes family! Hi beautiful! I love dogs!

JC: (to Kyra) Alright girl. 

HSV: Hi beautiful! Oh my god you’re beautiful! Yay! I bet we’ll being seeing her at the Counterculture Museum! 

EC: Yes! She’s gonna be our mascot! 

JC: Yes, she’s gonna be the resident leader! 

EC: You’re a good girl! 

HSV: Oh my god she’s beautiful. 

Thank you so much, Estelle. 

EC: Of course, my pleasure! 

HSV: (to dog) Nice to meet you, babycakes! We’ll see you around!

JC: (to wife) See ya, babe. Thanks for stoppin’ down. 

HSV: You guys are awesome. You guys are the best! 

Okay, back to Corso … 

JC: Corso is the guy being held back by one of the guys who organized the thing because he’s ready to fight the guy in a poetry reading! 

And then these are by Fred Madera, the ones of the Beatnik pads. I mean look at these places! So it’s kind of interested to see those images. 

HSV: Wow. Whoa look at that! That’s a pad? 

JC: Yeah! The mattress and all the crap on the floor and the poets and the various things written on the wall. 

HSV: That painting on the wall (close up of pig-like sketch on wall) — what a trip! Okay thanks for that. 

JC: So then we get into North Beach. So the Beats leave New York City. Plenty of Beats stayed in New York City but Ginsberg comes out to California, Kerouac … they came because of Neal Cassady. One time I was on the radio and being interviewed by Willie Brown and Will Durst — Will and Willie Show, remember that?

HSV: Yes I do!

JC: Willie Brown goes, “Jerry, what brought the Beat Generation to San Francisco? Was it our progressive culture? Is it the San Francisco renaissance? Is it the inclusiveness and compassion we all have for one another?”

HSV: I talked to Vale cuz we talked about the same thing and I said, “It was the Wild West! My whole family came here …” 

JC: That’s true. You’re right. It’s the end of the ocean. Kerouac says that in On the Road. “No more land,” says Dean. “We can’t no more further cuz there ain’t not more land.” 

HSV: All the crazies went West. 

JC: Right! So when Willie asked my the question, I said, “You’d like to think it was all those things: the tolerance, and the compassion for others, and the inclusivity that we’ve got.” For me the motto of the Beats was, “We don’t care who you are, what you look like, or what you’re doing. As long as you don’t hurt anyone else, come join our party.” And that’s how they lived. And that’s what was passed on to the Hippies. They embraced people. 

When Willie asked me that question, I said, “You’d like to think it’s all those things, Willie Brown, but the reality was that Neal Cassady was chasing a girl.” His wife, Carolyn Cassady, that he had met in Denver wanted to be a costume designer. She was trying to get to Hollywood and she didn’t know anybody in L.A., so she comes to San Francisco first to kind of get settled in the new state, and then she was gonna make her way to L.A. But before she could get down there, Neal caught up with her here and they got married in 1948. They lived up on Hyde Street and Union, right up on top of the hill. 

Then Ginsberg comes out following Neal and Jack comes out here to visit quite a few times. He lived with him right up here on Nob Hill. The history of North Beach in many ways — in addition to the Italian immigrants — comes from City Lights and Ferlinghetti’s influence … 

HSV: Jazz … 

JC: Absolutely. All these strip clubs used to be jazz clubs. 

(camera zooms in on flatiron on Columbus) That’s the Sentinel Building that is now owned by Francis Ford Coppola. 

HSV: Your Italian brother! 

JC: Yeah! Me and Francis. 

HSV: I heard — sorry again for interjecting and tangentializing — they’re making this into a hotel! 

JC: Yes, I’ve heard that.

HSV: Isn’t that exciting!?

JC: It is exciting, it will allow people to go in and stay there!

(pointing to a painting) This is a great piece. This is Bob Kaufman. He was one of the most beloved poets here in North Beach. And this is the photograph that that painting was taken from. That was taken by Jean Dierkes-CarlisleHe gave us that photograph. The photos were taken right up on Grant Avenue. And then one day there was a black painter by the name of George Pennewell and a friend of his in 1987 commissioned him to paint this picture of Bob.

When Bob died, he had a funeral procession going all the way down Grant and they took his ashes to the Bay. It was a big event. You’ll notice (pointing to painting) … this is the Bagel Shop and the Coffee Gallery and the CoExistence Bagel Company and The Place. These are the places where everybody hung out in here in North Beach. And he’s got the peace symbol around his neck. Actually he’s wearing it in the photo but you can’t it. You can see the chain. 

Those are records that were made at the Hungry I … 

HSV: Michael Stepanian used to work there as a waiter. 

JC: Did he? 

And this is what Broadway looked like in the golden years. 

HSV: Oh yeah, when Carol Doda’s tits were still blinking.  

JC: (laughs)

HSV: I remember it well. I used to go to the Fab Mab in ’77 or something crazy. 

JC: These are some photos by a guy named CR Snyder?? that were donated to us by his family.

HSV: Where is that?  

JC: That’s the Coffee Gallery, see, right where the balloons are. Probably the North Beach Fair if I had to guess. 

This is Ferlinghetti and Shig. Shig is the guy who was arrested by the cops for selling Howl and Ferlinghetti came back and surrendered himself. They were the two that had to stand trial for selling Howl. The judge, when the pre-trial motioned, said, “We can’t prove that you knew what you were selling, but Ferlinghetti, you published this book. So you’re the guy who’s gotta stand trial.” So the prosecution tried to make it look like it was a dirty book. It was poetry — nothing but poetry! Words on a page. It’s poetry! But it uses a lot of four-letter words that kids learn when they’re 7 years old in today’s world. But in 1956, you didn’t put ‘em in a book.

And so Ferlinghetti had to stand trial, and they had all these academics in there and talked about it. Basically what the judge ruled at the end of the day was, “Evil to he who feeds evil.” If you think that just using this word is obscene, then you’re the one that might have the problem.

HSV: Yes!

JC: Because the poet might be trying to get your attention by saying things like, “Go fuck yourself with your atom bomb” to the American government but that doesn’t make it obscene. 

HSV: Right!

JC: It’s an idea. 

HSV: It’s free speech, isn’t it? 

JC: Exactly. 

(pointing to new display window) This is another fantastic exhibit on the women of the Beat Generation. The women kind of got short-shrift. It’s not anything new and it still happens obviously. The New York City publishing contractors — publishing houses, rather, they wanted the men’s stories. They published Kerouac and Burroughs and John Clellon Holmes and other writers. And the women were basically mothers and homemakers and girlfriends and daughters, but they didn’t get the publishing contracts. 

This is Ruth Weiss.

HSV: Her typewriter is over there … 

JC: Ruth passed away a few years ago. She was a really good friend, especially with Estelle. We had her 90th birthday here. And that beautiful book there …

HSV: That almost looks like Cezanne or something.

JC: If you look over there (pointing) we’ll be passing it in a minute … 

HSV: Oh yeah, wow! (Bigger version of painting)

JC: When Ruth passed away, that was given to us. 

But there were a lot of women who were like Ruth, they weren’t getting published by the publishers so they published their own books. They would just go out and read their own poetry. Ruth used to tell a story: One time a guy comes up to her and says, “Who’s ever gonna read your books?” She’s got her little chapbooks, right? And he says, “Who’s ever gonna read your books, you’re a girl.” And she said, “I’m gonna read my books! I’m gonna do it on the street corner and I’m gonna do it loud!” And the she even has a thing about “Say it out loud!” She was a firecracker. She was a great woman. 

HSV: Yay. Love ya, Ruth! 

JC: Yes, truly. 

This is the Howl trial. Had it not been for the Howl trial, we wouldn’t be talking about any of this stuff. And the reason is it was because the trial that put the Beat Generation on the map. All of a sudden everybody wanted to read the dirty book. They went from selling a few at a time to thousands at a time because — what’s all the excitement about?

He was in LIFE magazine! That’s Ferlinghetti, Bendich?, and Shig in the court. And that’s Jake Ehrlich in the upper left corner where it says, “Big Day for the Bards” and this is the moment that everything shifted. Because once he was acquitted, a barrier had been broken.

HSV: Wow. 

JC: There were other people, there were lots of artists. The thing is, the Beats weren’t just the creative types, their friends were the bartenders and the students and they did all kinds of things. But many of them were various artists as well, and then they wound up becoming … over on Fillmore Street there were lots of artist studios, and the Marina District. There were a lot of famous names over there.

HSV: Dennis Hopper and — who’s that? 

JC: Bruce Conner. He was a friend of Michael McClure’s.

HSV: Who lived in the Haight, by the way. 

JC: Yeah right, exactly. He’s the guy that brought McClure to San Francisco.

(moving on with tour) This is the moment we call “the birth of the Beat Generation”. It’s 1944 in New York City right at the height of WWII. The guy’s name on the left is Hal Chase. He was a childhood friend of Neal Cassady. Kerouac has got the cigarette in his mouth. He’s only 22. In the white coat is Allen Ginsberg. He’s 18 years old. 

HSV: Oh my lord!

JC: And Burroughs is in the hat. He was already 30. So he’s 12 years older than Ginsberg. And he’s schooling the young guys: “Allen, you need to read Dostoevsky and Japneesly?? and Proust.

HSV: Spoon feeding them! 

JC: Exactly. 

And then it was Hal Chase on the left who not too long after this photograph was taken, Neal Cassady came to visit Hal Chase and then wound up meeting Kerouac and Ginsberg and Burroughs. 

HSV: So this is in San Francisco — no, New York!

JC: Columbia University.

HSV: Columbia University, got it! 

JC: New York City, yes! Like I said, it’s the first-known photograph of the Beats. They were students at Columbia. 

HSV: In fact, V.Vale’s dad, real dad, apparently he and Kerouac wanted to try and start a magazine at Columbia. Did you know that? 

JC: No! I didn’t know that. 

Hey, this is a great story about this (pointing to a football in a display case). Kerouac was a football hero. That was Lou Little. Football is what got Kerouac out of Lowell, Massachusetts. It was his ticket out of the little town into the big city. So we were looking to build an exhibit about his football time, and this is a program from the Columbia-Cornell game I think it is the Army-Columbia game, so this is 1943, ’44, 45. 

So I was ready to lockup this exhibit, but I needed a football and it had to look old, right? And I’m looking on Craigslist, I’m looking on eBay — I’m trying to fin an old football. Calling up friends going, “Who’s got an old football?” Nobody had anything that was older than the ‘80s or ‘90s. One day I woke up and I screamed at god and I said, “Would you just have a football show up in my life, and do it quick?” And I swear to god, I was at the front desk later that afternoon when a kid from Amsterdam comes walking in tossing this football in the air.

HSV: No!

JC: He was staying at the Green Tortoise and I looked at it and I said, “Where did you get that football?” He said, “I found it out on the street.” I said, “I’ll give you free admission if you give me that football.” He said, “I’ve got 5 friends at the Green Tortoise … “ I said, “Go get ‘em. You can all come in.” And that’s how I got my football. 

HSV: Wow. 

JC: Isn’t that an unbelievable story?!

HSV: That’s serendipity, synchronicity — all that cool stuff!

JC: It is! 

HSV: Cuz you’re in here doin’ cool stuff, so it came to you. 

JC: It did. 

So these are a couple items that are gonna go to Haight Street.

HSV: The Counterculture Museum, ladies and gentlemen. 

JC: Right!

This is a UPI photo [of Allen Ginsberg holding a “Pot is a reality kick”]. You can see it’s typed on the right. This is 1965 at a rally for the legalization of marijuana. And Ginsberg is in that protest. And this is the same day [pointing to another image] he’s wearing the exact same outfit, he’s holding a different sign [“Pot is Fun”]. But this is an old, old thing. When we first came to San Francisco, I went to Serendipity books and met the guy that ran it and we’re looking around like, “What can we put in the museum…” And he said, “You’re building a museum about the Beats?” I said, “Yeah. How much is this thing?” He said, “For you, it’s free. That belongs in a museum!” And it’s been here ever since, but now it’s got to go to the Counterculture Museum. 

HSV: Oh, that is so incredible. 

JC: It is, isn’t it?

HSV: Oh my god. 

And that’s clearly New York, because it’s snowing?

JC: Well, definitely East Coast. It probably says on here if we read the photo. 

[googled; found this article 

‘Pot is fun’ and other thoughts by Allen Ginsberg

HSV: This is … wow. 

JC: Isn’t it cool? 

So then we’ve got other stuff. This is The Town on the Mountain Top. They were big environmentalists. They really dug the idea of saving the planet. 

This is Gary Snyder with Lew Welch and Phil Whalen. They were from Portland, they went to Reed College. Snyder’s in the middle. That’s Lew you’re looking at, that’s Snyder, and that’s Phil Whalen. Snyder, who’s still alive today, is a huge environmentalist. Today, we’d call it climate change, but they were talking about saving the whales, saving the dolphins, back in the ‘50s. They read those types of poems at the original 6 reading at the Six Gallery in ’55! They were talking about saving the life of the planet. 

And then they were in Paris at the Beat Hotel

HSV: [panning to painting of Weiss] I was supposed to get a shot of the bigger painting. Taking it all in! 

JC: So a lot of them spent time in Paris, and the place is called the Beat Hotel. 

[pointing to huge case full of books] This is something that was donated to us not too long ago. This is probably, what, 30 books? Copies of On the Road from different countries. They were all in countries at different times. This is I guess Spanish. I don’t know what year it is, but it looks pretty old to me. This is a 1980s version out of China! And it looks like Beverley Hills 90210 or something! I mean — that’s On the Road! [laughter]

About 15 years ago, we had an exhibition of about 100 different On the Roads from different parts of the world, and then this guy named Horace Spandler who lived in Germany … 

HSV: Quite a name! 

JC: Yeah, he’s a great guy. He loaned us this stuff for 6 months and it was so popular that we kept it up for 2 years. And then finally one day he said, “You know, I’ve got something happening in London so can you ship them back?” And we did. And then 5, 7 years after that Horace donated the entire collection to us. And this is only a small part of it. 

HSV: “Uton” [reading out loud the book cover title of On the Road] They just say it in one word there!

JC: [inaudible]

So then … this entire wall will probably be shifted to the Counterculture Museum. Because … [panning camera to images on wall] Kesey … Ram Das … Janis, of course … Leary … Jerry … a painting party, psychedelic party … and this is a protest over in the Presidio … 

HSV: Robert Altman? Ben Fong-Torres! Hey Ben! Shoutout! Go Gators! 

JC: Right. And Altman gave all this stuff to us. 

HSV: Robert Altman gave you all this? 

JC: Yes. 

HSV: Wow, that’s an honor.

JC: When we first opened up. He was at our grand opening. 

HSV: [into mic] If you don’t know who Robert Altman is, look it up! 

JC: This is not the film director Robert Altman. This is the photographer Robert Altman. They’re two different people. They actually looked alike! They looked a lot alike! 

HSV: Thank you for pointing that out because I thought it was the other Robert Altman.

JC: No problem. So anyway…

One of the biggest events of the ‘60s would’ve been the Human Be-In, January 14, 1967. Ginsberg was onstage and Snyder and Ferlinghetti and the poets introduced the program. And then the next thing you know, the Grateful Dead and Jefferson Airplane are taking that same stage. So we’ve got the poets reading their poetry, and then here come the Airplane and the San Francisco sound at the Human Be-In on the same day. 

This is a poster of the Gathering of the Tribes. Here’s a Stanley [Mouse] piece, which I love because it says On the Road. Stanley gave us this. 

HSV: [panning to a different poster] What does this say?

JC: Who Be Kind To? This is a poem. It’s basically “Be kind to everybody” cuz you’re being kind to yourself. This is obviously a ‘60s piece. 

HSV: That’s incredible. By whom? Who is this, do you know? Is it Wes Wilson? 

JC: I think it is Wes! [zoom in] Yes, it’s Wes Wilson! 

HSV: Alright! Wes Wilson.

JC: So obviously, the overlap. 

HSV: Right! 

JC: It’s the overlap between North Beach and the Haight between the ‘50s and the ‘60s. 

[pan up to different poster] Protest. Peace march in April (15, 1967). Guy just walked In … all this stuff was given to us! This On the Road piece that Stanley gave us, and I love it because it’s the skeleton — and On the Road, which is fascinating. 

HSV: Wow man. Alright!

JC: So like I said, a lot of this stuff we’ll transfer directly. 

HSV: [more panning to items] More posters, look at this, wow, okay! 

JC: Yeah! Again, this is stuff that’s been coming in the mail, some other people dropping it off or picking it up. Here’s The Doors at the Avalon Ballroom; again The Doors; I like this piece because it’s about 1963 march on Washington: Jobs. Peace. Freedom. And that’s obviously a piece that resonates. 

[pan to next poster] And then this is probably how we’ll close off the story, with nuclear war. I mean come on, let’s talk about the fact that we’re a planet living on the edge. We have a message that we want to be able to tell. So these things will be framed up and put in the museum. 

[pan to another poster] I love Wavy! Wavy’s been here many times. 

HSV: I’m trying to get a hold of him for this edition to tell you the truth. 

JC: Hopefully you can!

This is one of my favorite Ferlinghetti posters. It’s about the crucifixion of Christ but he brings it up to the modern age. I actually used to do this onstage a lot. [reading from poster: 

“Sometime during eternity, some guys show up and one of them who shows up real late is a kind of a carpenter from some square-type place like Galilee and he starts wailing and claiming that he’s hip to who made heaven and earth and that the cat who really laid it on us is his Dad!”

I heard that poem when I was 14 years old! It was like, “How do you write about the crucifixion of Jesus like that?” Of course it was Ferlinghetti who did, and that’s what let me to the Beats. Ferlinghetti led me to Ginsberg ’s Howl. And then Howl led me to On the Road. And then here we are.  

So then there’s other cool pieces. I love this piece, cuz this is the Mars Hotel — Kerouac writes about the Mars Hotel. He stayed there! That’s why this says, “On the road everywhere all summer.” 

HSV: Where was the Mars Hotel?

JC: I’d have to figure out the exact location. It’s long since been torn down. 

HSV: I don’t even know. I know it’s an album! 

JC: Exactly. It was a real place. The Dead were hugely influenced … you know Dennis McNally?

HSV: Of course! He’s in this edition. 

JC: Right, good. And so Dennis, of course, introduced them to On the Road and Kerouac’s work …

HSV: Yeah, Jerry came up to him and said, “Hey I loved your book about Kerouac.”

[next poster] Bill!

JC: This is when Bill passed, with Steve and Melissa. 

HSV: Man, he’d be stoked about the Counterculture Museum, I’ll tell you that. 

JC: Ha! I think he probably would. I appreciate that. 

This is sitting on top of the other On the Road collection so I have it on there just temporarily so I could show it to you of course. And then we have other pieces that are pretty cool, and we’ll be gettin all these framed and put on the wall. 

This is a pretty famous one [flying eyeball] 

HSV: The eyeball! That’s Kelley, Alton Kelley I believe … 

JC: As well as Stanley’s … 

HSV: Bertha. 

JC: This is Allen Ginsberg at the Human Be-In. This is after the Human Be-In of course but that’s the date it celebrates the Gathering of the Tribes. This is Students for Democrats. This is a double-sided piece we’re gonna have to decide to frame it on one side or the other. 

HSV: Or have it spinning around maybe, hanging. 

JC: This is an old “Vote Yes on E to End the War Now!” And it’s signed by Eugene McCarthy, the presidential candidate. Isn’t that amazing? 

HSV: Wow. And somebody just donated it to you?

JC: Yeah, people just bring things to us! It’s kinda neat. 

HSV: Wow. People want to preserve history, man. 

JC: Speaking of that, let me show you this: This came from a really good friend, and we’re gonna be getting these frame soon. These are original editions of The Oracle. This is a great moment [cover image] because this is the Houseboat Summit. The Houseboat Summit took place in Sausalito. It was Leary and Ginsberg and Alan Watts and Gary Snyder. They were sitting on the houseboat where Watts lived up in Sausalito and basically they were talking about the future of the planet. Leary’s famous for saying, “Turn on, tune in, drop out.” And Gary’s saying, “You can’t drop out. We’ve got these responsibilities. You’ve got to operate within the system that you’re in. But you can still play your own game.” 

HSV: Yes! I concur.

JC: And then other Oracles. A fascinating fact that I didn’t learn… 

HSV: They’re in great shape. 

JC: They are! They were stored flat, cuz they came folded. A friend of mine gave me these three or four years ago. 

HSV: They’re beautiful. 

JC: A friend of mind brought these to me three or four years ago and said, “You’ve gotta have this for the museum.” At that time, it was this museum, but now it will be at the Counterculture Museum. 

HSV: And their publishing headquarters was right on Haight Street. 

JC: 1371 — a block away! Michael Bowen lived there. This is a Michael Bowen piece, and his wife, named Martune, I’ve been in touch with her and she tells great stories about this. We hope to be able to get her in to tell stories at the Counterculture Museum because the Human Be-In was planned in their apartment.  

(Image above from Haight Street Voice 2023 edition. Have you talked to Tsvi?!? Lives on Ashbury — before the Dead lived there!]

HSV: Do you know Harry Tsvi Strauch? 

JC: I’ve heard his name. I don’t think I know him.

HSV: I know him. He lives around the corner. 

JC: This is the Human Be-In. It was sprung from the Oracle. And it was the Psychedelic Shop that paid for this, to get this launched. And I never knew this cuz when you think about the impact that this newspaper had on society in the ‘60s? There were only 12 issues ever done! That’s fascinating! It was less than a year and a half with a constant changing of players, you know? People were coming and going and they had different little subgroups and segments. These guys were the artists. These guys were the musicians. These guys were the revolutionaries that wanted to radicalize everything and protest everything. And they had their moments. They had their factions. 

HSV: Allen had a dream that he wanted to have a newspaper and wanted it to be rainbows and colors.

JC: He did … 

This is the last issue. 

HSV: I love the way it says, “City of San Francisco”

JC: This is probably one of the most famous ones. I mean they’re all stunning. And then, a woman who knew one of the artists sent us some original drawings that were used in the magazine — or the newspaper. 

HSV: That’s wonderful. I love the community that you’re sort of pulling together because of a place for things to go. 

JC: Yes! Out of necessity and not having a budget to really buy stuff, people give us the stuff cuz they say, “You know what? I’m 80 years old and my kids don’t want this stuff.” And so they say, ‘You can tell the story with it.” 

HSV: Absolutely.

JC: And that’s how The Beat Museum was built. And we anticipate that’s exactly how the Counterculture Museum will — I mean that’s where this stuff, and this is just a small portion of what we’ve got. 

HSV: Wow. [close up of Kesey on Further bus]

JSV: This is our newest postcard. Dig that. This is the one Brandon designed. 

HSV: What’s goin’ down? [from “For What It’s Worth” lyrics] Let me take one … 

JS: Take a stack! 

HSV: Yeah, give me some! (Laughter)

JC: You can have all of them!

HSV: Perfect! 

JC: So then … lots of other things. 

HSV: So yeah, this was perfect. Okay, let’s talk about … [pan down to book] Oh I just looking at “Hippie Sex”! I couldn’t stop looking at that! [laughter] It pulled me in!

In closing, what are your hopes and dreams for the Counterculture Museum? What do you want to say to the Haight community? 

JC: Well first we want to say thank you because so many people have reached out to us. We’ve been contacted by a lot of people, and I’ve met with a lot of people. You know many of them: Jimmy Siegel and Ben Fong-Torres and Holly George-Warren and other folks. People who run the Doolan Larson building have contacted us.

HSV: Woody, Nancy Gille … 

JC: We’ve had a good meeting with those folks. We’re thrilled to be there and we hope that it comes across that we want to do good by everybody. We want people to enjoy themselves, we want to be a part of the community, we’re not out to change anything, if we get anything wrong we want people to point it out to us — cuz I didn’t grow up in San Francisco. I grew up in Baltimore. I’m a historian and I love this stuff, and I love the detail of this stuff, but we depend on people to help us tell the stories. 

When we first came here, every day somebody would walk in and say, “This belonged to Ginsberg…” or “This belonged to Kerouac … and here’s the story behind it.” And you learn — a lot! 

HSV: And bringing it to V.Vale who I just spoke with an hour ago — punk rock! I mean I used to go to the Fab Mab across the frickin’ street in 1978, man! That’s a big part of the counterculture. 

JC: Without a doubt! 

HSV: That rebellion! Why San Francisco? Why here? The Wild West!

JC: [holds up CCM postcard showing punk movement]

HSV: Jello Biafra — all of that stuff! 

Two things and then we’ll be done cuz I shouldn’t go over an hour and we just did: What doest counterculture mean to you and where is it going? We already know where it started and where we are now with the LBGTQ. Where do you see it going?

JC: Basically a counterculture — there’s always been countercultures. The Greeks and the Romans had countercultures. It’s people who don’t necessarily either fit in or don’t want to fit in. They see a better way. They don’t necessarily buy into the dominant paradigm. Typically they are saying things can get better and here’s one way of doing it. 

And countercultures come and go. And sometimes a counterculture becomes a new dominant paradigm of the society. And so what we’re trying to do is to help people, especially young people through school groups that come in a lot to the Beat Museum — and we expect them to come into the Counterculture Museum as well — to understand that it’s okay to be different, and especially if you understand why it appeals to you. 

One of the things we learned about being here at North Beach is people walk in all the time and they say, “I feel like I’ve come home. I feel like I’ve found my tribe.” Young people, 17, 18, 20 years old. And you see that much more apparently over on Haight Street. I mean just look how everybody dresses over there, you know? You don’t get a lot of people wearing berets and reading poetry on the street corner … 

HSV: And black leather jackets … 

JC: Right … in North Beach anymore. Although there were a lot of them here when we first opened 20 years ago. 

But the Haight is still alive with it, you know? And just think of who you’ve got that brought you there! The Grateful Dead has such a following and everybody’s just still diggin’ it! It’s a matter of “Do your thing!” It gets back to the philosophy of the Beats: We don’t care who you are, what you look like, what you’re into, as long as you’re not hurting anyone else — come join the party! That’s the message. 

HSV: Luckily, cuz I live in the Haight, I’ve noticed when I was working at the little corner shop, there are a lot less kids staring at their phones. I’m seeing a resurgence of a thing where kids are hungry for this stuff, the history. 

JC: Right. And I think that’s why we’ve been embraced by the people in the neighborhood because people recognize that. That’s the first thing that we were told: “We’ve been waiting for somebody to do this for 20 years!” I’ll tell you it’s interesting because in the years that we’ve been here in North Beach for 20 years I have spoke to personally to quite a few different people who came to me and said, “How do I build a hippie museum? I need to raise $10 million, I need to pay myself and all my board members and I need to build a hippie museum.” I say, “You know what? I can’t help you with that cuz if I knew how to raise $10 million to do it, I’d be doing it. The only way I know how to do it is to find a way to start it, start with what you’ve got, where you are — Gary Snyder says this — Dig in to the place that you are. Find a way to do it.

HSV: I LOVE that. 

JC: It’s a great quote. Find your place on the planet, dig in, and take it from there. 

HSV: BOOM! And that’s a rap! Mic drop! Thanks Jerry! I’m gonna give Jerry a hug y’all! 

JC: Thank you!

HSV: Thank you. That was so awesome. [closeup of Further bus] Go Further, young ones! And old ones! Let’s keep goin’, right? 

JC: Yep!